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Topic: Q for Board: Crisis on Infinite Earths and reboots (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 24 January 2014 at 10:51am | IP Logged | 1  

I was 13 when Crisis started. Since they had been building up to it for a few years at that point (though the Monitor seemed to go from a bad guy supplying supervillains to ... The Monitor), I was interested in it. As a standalone story, (and it read very well without needing to read the crossovers) with the story by Wolfman and art by Perez, it was indeed a beautifully, epic work that was extremely entertaining and touched the entire Universe. (Except, of course as JB has mentioned, Captain Carrot) I felt that the years afterward were a bit messy although again, the Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman reboots were all extraordinary and will we ever get to see such talent on those three heroes again? And then it just got messier and messier.

•••

Unfortunately, the post-CRISIS reboots served only to point out how little real thought DC had put into this putative "housecleaning." CRISIS should have ended with the characters in their "rebooted" conditions, and the following issues of the regular series would have then showed how they got that way.

Of course, how it actually played was an indication of DC wanting their cake(s) AND eating privileges.

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Brian O'Neill
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Posted: 24 January 2014 at 3:02pm | IP Logged | 2  

Eric Jansen:
*****
ALL-STAR SQUADRON--Eliminating so many Earth 2 heroes like the original Superman and Batman, poor Roy Thomas had to reinvent his Earth 2-based books into weird things that there was no reason to care about.

INFINITY INC.--This was my favorite book before CRISIS hit and I think there could have been a whole Earth 2 imprint, with this, the Huntress, Power Girl, the Spectre, and the JSA at least all carrying their own books.  But removing Earth 2 ruined the origins and the raison d'etre for both the Huntress and Power Girl, and who needed this team taking over for the JSA when the JLA now filled that position?

I don't know if there was some rivalry going back to their days at Marvel, but the Wein/Wolfman-led CRISIS really ruined everything that Thomas was doing at DC.
*****
Once Thomas had Earth 2 and the 3 'iconic' heroes taken away, he seemed to lose interest in the rest of the JSA and their 'offspring', Infinity Inc. All-STAR SQUADRON was itself replaced at the start of 1987 by YOUNG ALL-STARS, an attempt to create 'new' younger heroes in a 1940s setting. Although the Squadron was still around, those heroes largely faded into the background, and readers lost interest in the new title. INFINITY INC., meanwhile, tried to fit in with other 80s heroes and groups, but never really felt 'at home' on the single 'post-Crisis' Earth. 
Reading some old lettercols in those titles, you can see how RT's enthusiasm seems to wane, until it appears obvious he's just waiting for his DC contract to run out.
Once ALL-STAR SQUADRON finished, I lost track of Thomas at DC, since INFINITY INC and YOUNG ALL-STARS were 'direct only' titles i didn't catch up with for several years. So, when I picked up the 1989 revival of WHAT IF...? and saw that Roy had written the story (about the Avengers 'losing' the Evolutionary War), that was the first I knew that RT had left DC and returned to Marvel. When I finally read his last DC work, I noticed that he just said a perfunctory goodbye, and didn't seem bothered to elaborate on the circumstances.

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Josh Goldberg
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Posted: 24 January 2014 at 9:27pm | IP Logged | 3  

I was in 11th grade when CoIE began.  Even as a younger child, I had never found the DC multi-verse confusing at all, and, in fact, I quite enjoyed it.  The post-Crisis universe(s), on the other hand, I can't quite make heads or tails of.

So, congratulations DC, you removed an aspect of your books that I loved, and replaced it with something I don't understand.
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Thom Price
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Posted: 24 January 2014 at 9:38pm | IP Logged | 4  

I think CRISIS was unnecessary; there was nothing wrong with the pre-CRISIS DC Universe(s) that couldn't have been solved with a little selective pruning.  Even still, it could have lead to something interesting if there had been any plan or vision for what came after.  The years following CRISIS were slapdash and muddled.  After years of reading DC almost exclusively, I mostly switched to Marvel within 2 years of CRISIS.
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Roy Johnson
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Posted: 24 January 2014 at 9:39pm | IP Logged | 5  

Two words: Power Girl.

Or Hawk Man
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 25 January 2014 at 3:25pm | IP Logged | 6  

At the time, I was ready to leave comics behind altogether. Two of my favorite DC Characters were the Earth-2 Superman and Flash. Clearly, I thought, these two were going to be the first to go. "Earth-2" and "Golden Age" were practically part of their names!

That they did not actually kill either of them helped a great deal in my getting past the overall destructive nature of this series. Parallel Earths were never a problem for readers in general. Fans, yes, because fans would go back and try to figure out if there really was an Earth-1 Wildcat or not (I'd say, based on his team-up with the Creeper is Super-Team Family, there was, but since DC editorial never outrightly said there was, well, then it was all just Bob Haney not giving a damn about the continuity-obsessed fans, I mean, ahem, the readers... The readers, of course. Y'know, really, the readers don't care what Earth Wildcat is from and just want a good story this month. Can you do that? No? More pointless speculation on whether the Spectre somehow changed Earths during his time in that crypt instead? O-kay...

The continuity obsessive fans-turned-writers didn't understand parallel Earths, and so made Crisis "necessary." Readers were not confused, but the writers, all laughing hysterically over what the old-timers had wrought, those guys needed a new starting point. After all, there were, like, a half-dozen characters whose histories were contradictory or stretched across two or more Earths. THIS, they decided, needed repair.

And once they were "done," to the extent that Crisis was ever "done," (Like road repair, there was always more work to be done, either down the road, or back in same spot we'd dug up last week) we had far more than a half-dozen anomalies. Every single character was up for grabs as far as their history went. What happened? What didn't? What was real? What wasn't? Nobody knew!! How exciting!!

Post-Crisis, now THAT was confusing. Over and over again, repaving the same streets, digging them back up, paving over them again... Digging them up... Paving them over...

Just the very idea that you had the same character, but now with completely different parents, history, and motivations should be a tip off that you're off-base, but no. DC saw these as good things. After all, it's never been done before! How do we know it won't work? If you liked Helena Wayne, daughter of the Batman, you'll love Helena Bertenelli, Christianity-obsessed, criminal-killing daughter of a mob boss. Same, same, but different!

Pre-Crisis, a great many stories no longer "meant" anything, because current continuity no longer allowed for them. Time to clean house! Post-Crisis, nothing meant anything, because continuity was no longer "set" and anything and everything could happen to wipe it all away again. And it did. Cool! Superman teamed up with Hawkman this month! Except... that Hawkman never existed, so this month's story... didn't really happen? Well, maybe it kind of did. Some other issue will come along shortly and explain HOW it could have happened... Who knows? We may even decide to keep that explanation later. No promises, though! We've always got something better coming along right behind it!

Reading the Legion was just a damned headache. Hawkman, now a drug-addicted prettyboy whose wife was his commanding officer, was just dreary. Power Girl was from Atlantis, but not Aquaman's Atlantis. See, there are different Alantises in different eras, all tying in together, but different too. See? Not confusing like parallel Earths at all, is it?

Crisis was a complete cluster****.

The series itself, just those twelve issues, was a creative disaster as well. First off, flexographic printing, filling with garish new colors, giving everyone the ben-day measles, and no real ability to hold a black line. All that lovely Perez detail... Gone. They kept it up for two whole issues and then went back to regular presses for the third, a bit too late. As for the story, remember all of that time spent recruiting individual team members for the Crisis, a uniquely qualified team who were to be at the center of the series... All those crossovers we bought to watch the team be assembled, and then by issue two, they lost, failed to stop the big tuning-fork thingies, and no more team! 'Bye, guys! Back to wallpaper with you! Lots of BIG emergencies arising and then coming to pass, but not really affecting anything. All of existence faded to a blank white page... TWICE! Way to milk it, Marv! Tell the truth, you don't really have a plan for even these twelve issues, do you, never mind what comes after...?

Supergirl! Her big death scene! So, she's how big a part of this series? Right. She appears in the issue where's she's killed, and that's about it... Um, maybe we shouldn't have kidnapped the Flash in issue one, since we really didn't anything for him to do until issue eight, except crawl around on the floor and cower in helpless fear of the Psycho-Pirate. Eight issues of the cringing, cowering, gibbering Flash. A fine tribute to a proud character.

Issue after issue, there's panel after panel of heroes facing the reader with looks of absolute astonishment on their faces and they Just... Can't... Believe... What... They're... Seeing!! Wow... it must be impressive if it puts that stupid look on Superman's face every Rao-damned issue...

And at the end, we're told it all happened, but no one remembers it. Supergirl did exist, but now, in this new world, she didn't. Her sacrifice still took place though. That's where Crisis left it. Her body was brought back to her parents in Kandor...

And as it turns out, that wasn't honest either. Shortly after, a new Superman, with no knowledge of Supergirl, Kandor, or even how to tie his shoelaces shows up with a big ol' perpetual grin and we're left wondering what happened to previous one? He got an imaginary story send-off, but that was clearly set in the Pre-Crisis universe some time in the future, years after things calmed down there... What happened to the guy we've been reading about since the close of Crisis? Did Supergirl's death happen or not? Well, as Mark Waid and Alan Brennert who foolishly played by the rules as they were given at the end of Crisis will tell you, apparently not!

The Crisis all still happened we were assured, but not exactly as it was shown! After all, there was no Supergirl in it! No Golden Age Superman! These characters NEVER existed, so how could they have been there? Stick around, kids, and maybe someday we'll fill you in on what REALLY went down! Really? Crisis, the series that erased fifty years of storytelling was itself almost instantly erased as well, a happening that would be the norm in the new, Post-Crisis, "We have nothing figured out" DCU...

 

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Brian O'Neill
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Posted: 25 January 2014 at 3:46pm | IP Logged | 7  

Another stupid result of the Crisis was that Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman weren't founding members of the Justice League.
Well, Wonder Woman didn't exist at the time the JLA was founded, Batman joined 'later', and Superman...was never a member, even though he helped the JLA 'a lot'(basically, any issue where Superman played a prominent role happened whenever he was available to 'help out', and any time he had a lesser role where it was easier to write him out, he was written out.)
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Jason Larouse
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Posted: 25 January 2014 at 8:10pm | IP Logged | 8  

I'm pretty much against reboots but I've always thought that if you were going to do one, you should go all the way. I'd like to see one where every new issue one is an origin story and then by like issue 6 you can have Superman and Batman meet and then around the first year you can have an event that brings the Justice League together. None of this "we're rebooting Superman kinda but all of Batman's continuity is the same kinda except maybe a few things"
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Greg McPhee
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Posted: 25 January 2014 at 9:41pm | IP Logged | 9  

Eric Jansen:
*****
ALL-STAR SQUADRON--Eliminating so many Earth 2 heroes like the original Superman and Batman, poor Roy Thomas had to reinvent his Earth 2-based books into weird things that there was no reason to care about.

INFINITY INC.--This was my favorite book before CRISIS hit and I think there could have been a whole Earth 2 imprint, with this, the Huntress, Power Girl, the Spectre, and the JSA at least all carrying their own books.  But removing Earth 2 ruined the origins and the raison d'etre for both the Huntress and Power Girl, and who needed this team taking over for the JSA when the JLA now filled that position?

I don't know if there was some rivalry going back to their days at Marvel, but the Wein/Wolfman-led CRISIS really ruined everything that Thomas was doing at DC.
*****
Once Thomas had Earth 2 and the 3 'iconic' heroes taken away, he seemed to lose interest in the rest of the JSA and their 'offspring', Infinity Inc. All-STAR SQUADRON was itself replaced at the start of 1987 by YOUNG ALL-STARS, an attempt to create 'new' younger heroes in a 1940s setting. Although the Squadron was still around, those heroes largely faded into the background, and readers lost interest in the new title. INFINITY INC., meanwhile, tried to fit in with other 80s heroes and groups, but never really felt 'at home' on the single 'post-Crisis' Earth. 
Reading some old lettercols in those titles, you can see how RT's enthusiasm seems to wane, until it appears obvious he's just waiting for his DC contract to run out.
Once ALL-STAR SQUADRON finished, I lost track of Thomas at DC, since INFINITY INC and YOUNG ALL-STARS were 'direct only' titles i didn't catch up with for several years. So, when I picked up the 1989 revival of WHAT IF...? and saw that Roy had written the story (about the Avengers 'losing' the Evolutionary War), that was the first I knew that RT had left DC and returned to Marvel. When I finally read his last DC work, I noticed that he just said a perfunctory goodbye, and didn't seem bothered to elaborate on the circumstances.

===================================================

Didn't I already say this up thread???
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Thomas Moudry
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Posted: 26 January 2014 at 9:32am | IP Logged | 10  

COIE was a fun read as it was coming out, and seeing all those characters
together, brought to life by George Perez, was a real treat for me. The
aftermath, however, was disappointing: a reboot that wasn't a complete
reboot, just a confusing mess—so why not keep what came before, which
wasn't confusing at all?

The New 52 has been much the same. Again, it's not a total reboot (Green
Lantern and Batman sell too well.), and it's clear that everyone wasn't on the
same page when it started (Tim Drake? How many Robins in five years?).

Edited by Thomas Moudry on 26 January 2014 at 9:37am
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Kip Lewis
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Posted: 26 January 2014 at 9:39am | IP Logged | 11  

For me it was different.   I was on a
break from comics when COIE happened.   I
came back with JB's Superman #1.   It was
a little confusing, But once I figured
out what DC was doing, it really didn't
confuse me. I didn't read COIE until a
year or two later.
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Marin Balabanov
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Posted: 26 January 2014 at 10:22am | IP Logged | 12  

I wonder whether anybody thinks that "Crisis on Infinite Earths" is a good story standing on its own? Regardless of whether it succeeded or failed in a clean reboot.

When reading it the very first time, I was quite overwhelmed by the large number of characters. Even the dramatic story points like the death of Supergirl I felt were mired in the large wave of things happening. But I did enjoy George Perez' great artwork.
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