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Topic: X-MEN Q for JB- Logan and Jean (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 15 January 2014 at 9:02pm | IP Logged | 1  

OFF the topic-- I have to say that ever since I first saw it, I've admired the drawing of Wolverine's THUMB in that little sequence at the top of this thread.
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Blair Herd
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Posted: 16 January 2014 at 5:27am | IP Logged | 2  

This is still one of my favourite images.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 16 January 2014 at 7:38am | IP Logged | 3  

"What if?" scenarios are a lot of fun to play with.
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Vinny Valenti
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Posted: 16 January 2014 at 8:58am | IP Logged | 4  

I'm curious what the script was intended to be for the original scene in X-MEN#138 where Wolverine is watching Jean and Scott leave from a window.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 16 January 2014 at 9:05am | IP Logged | 5  

I'm curious what the script was intended to be for the original scene in X-MEN#138 where Wolverine is watching Jean and Scott leave from a window.

••

Guess we'll never know!

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Larry Morris
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Posted: 16 January 2014 at 10:50am | IP Logged | 6  

I've always maintained that it was a Claremont thing.  And when he decided on it, he didn't handle Jean regularly at the time.  The people who did, like Louise Simonson, barely touched on Jean/Logan.  

She wrote the XTINCTION AGENDA issue where they kissed, but that was part of a crossover, a collaboration of ideas.  She wrote Jean Grey for I'd guess close to 60 issues.  Where else is it?  She gave Scott and Jean obstacles, but they weren't Wolverine related.  It's likea game Claremont was playing and pretty much playing alone.  Once he was gone , AOA(an alternate reality) aside, what was done with Jean/Logan?

Then I suspect the movie's ridiculously one sided portrayal, 3 or 4 Logan/Jean scenes in the first versus none with Scott and Jean, contributed to bringing it back to some degree.  Mark Millar hooked Jean and Logan up in ULTIMATE.  Flat out said it was because of the movie chemistry.  Joe Casey had Logan grab Jean and kiss her in his first issue of UNCANNY.  Morrison had them kiss and I thought that was Jean kissing him.  Also thought it was made clear that the kiss was all about her problems with Scott at the time.  He did not write a Jean/Scott/Logan triangle.  He was too busy having Scott start up an affair with Emma Frost.

I always thought it was so overrated because anything that ever happened was isolated.  There was never any feelmg that Jean might wind up with Logan.  That Jean has feelings for Logan that rival those for Scott.  

You want that, read the novels for the second and third movies.  Claremont wrote them and that is a real triangle.  And there is some of that in CLASSIC X MEN 1 and the panels posted there.  Although if you read the entire story, her entire conversation with Xavier, she is already considering leaving/her place with the team before encountering Logan.  With Xavier, she cites other reasons she is leaving, but no denying Logan is a major one of them.  Thing is, that's one story in how many years?  Find me another story where Jean is worried about giving into Logan.  Maybe if Claremont had stayed in 91.

Yep, Claremont writes STRONG woman.  And you can tell when he writes the characters.  When he first came back to Marvel, he wrote a storyarc on WOLVERINE.  It's revealed that Logan had married Viper.  It had to so with some debt he felt he owed a friend.  Anyway, Jean hears about it and goes off on him for keeping such a secret.  To hell with you or to blazed with you.  In my view it wasn't Jean as anyone had written her in years, it was Claremont's Jean.  Strong, in your face.


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John Byrne
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Posted: 16 January 2014 at 11:44am | IP Logged | 7  

Then I suspect the movie's ridiculously one sided portrayal, 3 or 4 Logan/Jean scenes in the first versus none with Scott and Jean, contributed to bringing it back to some degree.

••

The movies gave us Cool (and tall, and handsome) Logan, and Scott the jerk -- or "dick," to use Joss Whedon's contribution to the proceedings. In other words, the fan think that had come to dominate the X-Men, and superhero comics in general.

A far cry from what was crafted by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, or Roy Thomas and Neal Adams.

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 16 January 2014 at 12:28pm | IP Logged | 8  

Then I suspect the movie's ridiculously one sided portrayal, 3 or 4
Logan/Jean scenes in the first versus none with Scott and Jean,
contributed to bringing it back to some degree.
++++++++++

I'd say that the 90s cartoon played a pretty big role, since it used the
concept pretty often. And the movies clearly used the cartoon as a
source--Singer even admitted it in his audio commentary.
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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 16 January 2014 at 12:46pm | IP Logged | 9  

JB: The movies gave us Cool (and tall, and handsome) Logan -- or "dick," to use Joss Whedon's contribution to the proceedings

SER: Wolverine really should be a Joe Pantoliano-type role (not saying I'd cast him as Wolverine, of course). He's not the lead but he gets some good lines and scenes and we want to see more of him (but the creators wisely never show us more).

If a leading man plays Wolverine, then Cyclops can only be the Bill Pullman character. I also thought writing Wolverine as the "gateway" character in XMEN was a big mistake that was bound to diminish his inherent mystery.

Curiously, Whedon had the same problem over on BUFFY with Riley, who just came across as cardboard. Buffy eventually went from recovering "bad boy" Angel to outright "bad boy" Spike. The shadow of Wolverine's popularity looms large, perhaps. Even Xander is basically a jokey Nightcrawler.

As we've seen with Superman, creators today have trouble with the all-American hero types who aren't "bad boys."
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Larry Morris
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Posted: 17 January 2014 at 10:29am | IP Logged | 10  

Cartoon, Greg???  And Singer used that as a template?  If he did he wasn't paying much attention to what he was watching.  Whatever else you think of the 90s cartoon, it got the dynamics of Scott/jean/Logan a lot truer to the comics than the movies did.

If you watched the cartoon, what do you think the % of Scott/Jean screen time vs Jean/logan was?  5/1? 10/1?   The Jean/Scott relationship is at the core of the cartoon's Phoenix storyline.  They take a bunch of dialogue directly from the comics.

Many things are different.  Rogue and gambit are there instead of Nightcrawler and Colossus.  Phoenix is clearly a separate entity that is battling Jean for control of her actions.  The planet destroyed is uninhabited.  But the emotional core of the story, the love between Jean and Scott is as true as you can get to the comics.  Shall we compare that to the Movie's Phoenix story?  I know Singer was gone by then, but nothing I saw in the first 2 indicated to me that he would have done much better.

No denying, that cartoon touched a bunch on Logan having a thing for Jean and there is a scene ot two that suggests she may feel some attraction for him.  I had no problem with that in the sense is that was true to what the comics had established at the time.  But he is NOT presented as a real threat to the Jean/Scott relationship.  Jean loves Scott, Logan doesn't stand a chance.

Now the movie didn't have her wind up with Logan either but it was damn sure presented as a better possibility.  Scott can still be with Jean at the end of the first movie, but all the interaction was with Logan. Logan is the star of the movie.  The people who had never read the comics, who were the majority of them going to favor?

Logan and Jean kiss in the second movie.  I remeember that Singer said it was his idea.  That he had polled the crew on whether they thought it was a good idea.  They apparently said yes.  I said it back then.  This proves what?  That if you make the movie so people will want Jean with Logan that they will?

Speaking of Singer commentary, I'm surprised I don't remember him referencing the cartoon because I did watch his.  The commentary where he mentioned deliberately casting Jean and Scott with a noticeable age difference to service the triangle.






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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 17 January 2014 at 11:19am | IP Logged | 11  

No denying, that cartoon touched a bunch on Logan having a thing for
Jean and there is a scene ot two that suggests she may feel some
attraction for him. I had no problem with that in the sense is that was
true to what the comics had established at the time. But he is NOT
presented as a real threat to the Jean/Scott relationship. Jean loves
Scott, Logan doesn't stand a chance.
+++++++++

I agree, but I can't help but think that the show was an influence on
Singer's version.


In that same vein, a lot of bits and dynamics in RAIMI'S Spider-Man
movies also seem to cones from the 90s cartoon. It would seem that
filmmakers find watching cartoons easier than reading!
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Fred J Chamberlain
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Posted: 17 January 2014 at 11:40am | IP Logged | 12  

I always found Wolverine's charactization and portrayal as
the outsider to be one of the most appealing and central
qualities of the character. When word got out that he was
going to become headmaster of a school, I did and still
shake my head at the thought of it.
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