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Brad Krawchuk
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Posted: 19 January 2014 at 12:33pm | IP Logged | 1  

And it doesn't even make sense to have the DC characters look alike! Batman's armour is the best armour money can buy on Earth, Superman's armour is Kryptonian, Green Lantern's is an Oan ring's construct, Aquaman's is Atlantean... and they all have the same collars and/or line designs before they ever meet?
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John Byrne
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Posted: 19 January 2014 at 12:40pm | IP Logged | 2  

"You'd have to be CRAZY to fight crime without some kind of ARMOR!"

And thus, a little more of the magic is siphoned away. . . .

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 19 January 2014 at 1:01pm | IP Logged | 3  

Greg, I wonder if your uncanny attention to detail (which I've seen on
ample display here many times, particularly in the Star Trek sub-forum)
makes it difficult for you to filter out and omit unnecessary detail in
things like explaining Earth 1 and Earth 2 to your friend? Show your
friend JLA #101. I first read that when I was five, and I had no difficulty
understanding the concept of the DC multiverse. And I was coming in
on the second part of a three-part story, to boot... yet it was not
confusing in the least.
++++++++++

Okay, here's the deal:

Not to be insulting, but my friend is not the sharpest bulb on the tree
when it comes to this sort of thing. Sci-fi, comics, and other genre-
fiction is not something he's had much exposure to. He's never seen
STAR WARS or Indiana Jones or the Superman movies or any of the
stuff that most nerds take for granted. He's only seen a few of the
recent Batman movies, and knew virtually nothing at all about
Superman until I loaned him the 1978 movie, and he bought the first
Chronicles reprint book (as he also did for Batman).

So, we're basically talking a blank-slate, here. He's become interested
in all this stuff I keep mentioning, and so I'm slowly initiating him into
different nerd properties. He enjoys it on a casual level, more than
anything, but still likes to hear about the more complex stuff whenever
we chat.

I mean, a REAL blank-slate. Concepts like retcons and reboots are
unknown to him.

That said, our discussion about the multiple Earths required me to lay
down the foundations of some very basic genre conceits, as well as the
basics of DC's publication history, in quite some detail. He's interested
in all this stuff, so I tend to be thorough.


That said, it's a bit much for a total newbie! I try to be clear and concise,
without being overwhelming, but it can be difficult.


This is one reason why I've never read LORD OF THE RINGS, or seen
the film version. That way, I get to be the one who has no clue when my
other friends start talking about it in nerdy detail!

Makes me humble.
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 19 January 2014 at 1:34pm | IP Logged | 4  

To explain Earth 1 and Earth 2 to a newbie, it's not necessary to explain any genre conceits of comics or provide any information about DC's publication history.  It sounds like your friend was interested in getting a higher level of detail, and when you start providing more detail there is certainly more opportunity for confusion to arise.  You can make just about anything confusing if you get into minute detail and obscure trivia. 

But the point is that it's possible to explain the Earth 1 and 2 concept sufficiently for any civilian to understand a good silver or bronze age story without providing those details.  The concept need not be confusing at all.  "Earth 2 is a parallel earth in another dimension.  It's similar to our earth but not identical.  One of the differences is that the Earth 2 versions of our superheroes tend to be older and sometimes wear different costumes."  That's all you need to know to fully understand any JLA/JSA story from the 60s or 70s.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 19 January 2014 at 1:46pm | IP Logged | 5  

To explain Earth 1 and Earth 2 to a newbie, it's not necessary to explain
any genre conceits of comics or provide any information about DC's
publication history. It sounds like your friend was interested in getting a
higher level of detail, and when you start providing more detail there is
certainly more opportunity for confusion to arise. You can make just
about anything confusing if you get into minute detail and obscure
trivia.
++++++++++

Hey, I tried to keep it simple--Golden Age, Wertham, Silver Age, Crisis,
JSA/JLA. I think I got the basics across, but it took some re-explaining
and clarifying of certain points.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 19 January 2014 at 11:47pm | IP Logged | 6  

I have no trouble with Earth-1 and Earth-2. I don't have much affection for the unimaginative saddling on of Earth-X, Earth-S, et al to the concept. Fox and Schwartz came up with something fun and cool. If you actually respected what they did, you'd try doing the same. But no... parallel Earths were established so, "Me, too! Me, too! Me, too!" on and on and on... Unto infinity, apparently... It's unfortunate, but ultimately not actually confusing.

I get where occasional readers might feel cheated by the concept. When Action #484 came out with the marraige of Superman and Lois on the cover to celebrate the title's 40th anniversary, casual and outside readers picked up the book out of curiousity. Superman and Lois Married at long last? History in the making...!

While we in the know (as I was back then at the young age of ten or so) knew the cover "played fair" with us, showing the Daily Star building in the background, letting us all know where the story took place and which Superman and Lois we were seeing, the clerk at my local 7-11 for instance was genuinely puzzled. "Did you know there are two Supermen?" he asked me, "One of them has been around since the 40's...?" He got the basics of the idea just fine.

It just didn't strike him as a particularly good idea. He thought, y'know, Superman and Lois getting married would be... Superman and Lois. Not some older version that only turns up occasionally. He was clearly disappointed. The ol' bait and switch... I tried telling him that in some respects the older Superman was the more genuine of the two, since it was his adventures we were told took place in those earliest issues. He's the original Superman, so his getting married to his Lois was in fact a marraige between the "real" ones, but even I knew I was tap-dancing with that. Extra versions were extraneous versions to his eyes. It was dramatically unsatisfying to have a big change occur that was really no change at all in the monthly titles themselves.

Comics are weird things. I keep coming back to a critic who dismissed "Alice in Wonderland" as nonsense since no one could be expected to reasonably follow a narrative that included "six impossible things before breakfast." Comics ask more than that. It's not just super-science and fantasy, but also mythology and crime fiction and time travel and sorcery and... It's everything everyone's ever thought of, all put together and happening all at once. Any issue of the Avengers or the Justice League requires acceptance of not just wacky physics and super-powers, but also magic, androids, make-believe additions to the periodic table, and so much more. Six impossible things? Casual readers should be so lucky...

I had a friend who only ever read Batman. Batman made sense to her. Superman did not. She was an English teacher. She taught literature. And just the idea that this guy was a super-powered alien was just too much. Couldn't buy into it. She loved Batman though, and did not mind the idea of "rebooting" Jason Todd's origin. It's all just stories. She liked the new one better, and liked the character of Jason Todd. No problem. That some universal "Crisis" was somehow involved was just... awkward. Batman shouldn't do stuff like that. The Batman from her teen years, "her" Batman never would have. Well, yes, he kind of did, I said. He just did so in other titles, like JLA or Worlds Finest.

All well & fine, but she didn't read those books. She remembered the image of him looming over a cadre of street bikers. Or a gothic mansion. That was Batman. Cool. Dark. Mysterious. One Impossible Thing. That's it. Just One. Okay, yeah, allowances would be made for weird villains to exist in his world as well, but once you allowed for Batman, that wasn't really a second step. That was just an embroidering on the first.

The clerk at 7-11 was willing to go farther into the realm of the patently unbelievable but he wanted a "real" story in return, and parallel earth duplicates were not "real." Not the real Superman, anyway. Not to him at any rate. Who knows if he ever came back to the book afterwards. I'd like to think he did and that Earth-2 wasn't some kind of deal-breaker for him.

In that sense, the people behind Crisis had something of a point. But not much of one, since in order to properly address the problem and make the product more appealing to more potential readers, to "simplify the universe" as it were, you'd have to eliminate a lot more than just parallel worlds. You'd have to get rid of Olympian Gods running around with New Gods and Norse Gods and whatever other nonsense the heroes had tied around their necks, albatross-style... Egyptian wizards, for instance... And  so many alien worlds and bottle cities and robot dinosaurs and telepathic communication with fish and emotional androids and... Really, each and every one of these "impossible things" is an outrightly silly contrivance to someone.

Is getting rid of parallel Earths then just maybe a good place to start? I don't think so, not unless you intend to get rid of doppelgangers altogether. What's the point of having the Crime Syndicate come from Qward instead of Earth-3? It's the same gimme. No clever, clever "pocket universes" which do the same thing as parallel ones, but get through on technicalities... Readers supposedly rejected that whole premise, right? Except, no, we really CAN'T stop writing them, so... Same thing, only different... Same result only not the same, see? Hey, play that game and you may as well have not bothered at all... Before you know it, Hypertime, and there y'go... Everything back the way it was before. Why not? It didn't actually change. Exactly the same sort of stories were being written.

Comics simply ARE six impossible things before breakfast. Times 600. And possibly more in any given issue. Kids who love them love all that stuff and have no trouble taking in as much of it as they can, absorbing more and more fuel for their imaginative fires, incorporating the rules of vampire slaying with the rules of time travel along with the code of the Batman and history of strife between Thanagar and Rann and idea that monsters invaded Earth constantly during the 1950's... More! More!

Really, why limit this? Imagination is really a good thing. One of the best we have going for us.

There should be simple crime fiction stories. There should be simple mythology ones as well. Not every issue needs to be Showcase #100 (the single-issue comic that pre-emptively  eliminated the need for crossover books all together. Read that and you don't need any of the others... ) But you can't chop away at the imaginative underpinnings of the industry in a vain attempt to ensure that no Showcase #100 comes up to frighten unwary readers away ever again...

Parallel earths aren't one bit more confusing than the Savage Land. Or Dracula. Or the Skrulls' shape-changing powers. Or any of the other things that someone at one time or another decided HAD to go away and then came back again anyway because, really, they weren't the problem. Imagination is not the problem. It's what makes all this possible. It's what makes all this worthwhile.



Edited by Brian Hague on 19 January 2014 at 11:53pm
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 20 January 2014 at 12:30am | IP Logged | 7  

Well said, Brian.



....but what does Earth-2 Brian think?
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 20 January 2014 at 12:46am | IP Logged | 8  

Earth-2 Brian is so old that I think he's dead now...

 

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 20 January 2014 at 12:55am | IP Logged | 9  

But...I thought he went with young Brian-Prime at the end of the
CRISIS! I mean, you can't just kill off Golden Age Brian! He's the one
who kicked everything off! He deserves a happy ending!


...not in a pervy way.
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Greg Woronchak
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Posted: 20 January 2014 at 12:27pm | IP Logged | 10  

I should point out that it took me the better part of
a half-hour to explain the basics of Earth-1 and a Earth-2

One of the early comics I bought off of a spinner rack was All Star Squadron #15. Considering different Earths of different time-periods were involved, the concept was explained well enough in the story that I was able to follow.

I really respect those creators who were able to tell stories one could easily follow in any given issue, unlike today's books which are impenetrable.
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 21 January 2014 at 12:52am | IP Logged | 11  

One ironic thing about CRISIS eliminating the "confusing" Multiverse was that DC immediately started putting out dozens of ELSEWORLDS stories!  "Hey, we got rid of old Superman on Earth 2 who was confusing everything...but here's Russian Superman, and future Superman, and western Superman, and War of the Worlds Superman, and--" etc., etc.!

And now we have the New 52, which stems from FLASHPOINT, which gave us an alternate timeline.  Even civilians might ask why Superman doesn't have red trunks or when did he get armor or how many Robins could Batman have in his short 5-year career, etc.  CRISIS could have worked, if everybody bought into the idea that it was a brand new world...but everybody didn't and quite a few writers starting referring to it and took to trying to "fix" it by writing stories that told how Black Canary helped found the JLA, etc.  Finally, they started to undo CRISIS by bringing back Earth 2 and the Multiverse and all the fans got excited--because it really is a cool idea that opens the door for all kinds of cool stories.  And then they got rid of it again.

(Should I even mention that the world only changed after both CRISIS and FLASHPOINT because the heroes FAILED?)

LIkewise, if DC fully committed to it (including fixing all the problems like Damian's age, etc. BEFORE the books started coming out), I suppose it could have worked too.  But DC has already started to give us anthologies featuring, apparently, new stories of the classic versions of Batman and Superman (made obvious by the appearance of their black and red trunks).  So, already, any civilian can go to the newsstand and buy a New 52 Batman or Superman and the classic versions and ask the question "Why are they different?"  And now the answer is "Well, see Barry Allen went back in time to save his mother's life and..."

I think John Byrne's solution is the best, after all.  Not mentioning a change might be the best way to handle a lot of these things.
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Sergio Saavedra
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Posted: 21 January 2014 at 5:28pm | IP Logged | 12  


And it doesn't even make sense to have the DC characters look alike! Batman's armour is the best armour money can buy on Earth, Superman's armour is Kryptonian, Green Lantern's is an Oan ring's construct, Aquaman's is Atlantean... and they all have the same collars and/or line designs before they ever meet?
************************
And don't forget the indestructible Hulk's armour.
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