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Robert Bradley
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 4883
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| Posted: 23 January 2014 at 1:39pm | IP Logged | 1
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Aww c'mon Greg, what's so confusing?!!
Nathaniel Richards [31st century] --> Iron Lad [21st century] --> Nathaniel Richards [31st century] --> Pharaoh Rama-Tut [2950 BC Egypt] --> Scarlet Centurion [modern time (divergent timeline)] --> Kang [40th century] --> Victor Timely [early 20th century] --> Kang [40th century] ----/Avengers Forever divergence/----> Pharaoh Rama-Tut [ancient Egypt] --> Immortus [master of Limbo] +
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133334
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| Posted: 23 January 2014 at 1:50pm | IP Logged | 2
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...and a partridge in a pear tree!
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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
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| Posted: 25 January 2014 at 2:34am | IP Logged | 3
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Finally got to read STRANGE TALES # 114--the Captain America tryout
story--which is something I've long waited to see.
It's interesting that, within the first three years of the Marvel Age that
was kicked off by FF # 1, Stan and Jack would waste no time getting
the company's three biggest heroes (the Torch, Namor, and Cap) back
on their feet. This, despite the failure of their short-lived revivals, nearly
a decade prior.
It comes as no surprise that both Stan and Jack came back aboard for
this story, given their mutual love for Cap. Until this point, Dick Ayers
had been drawing TALES, while Stan was merely providing plots to be
scripted by guys like Jerry Siegel and Robert Bernstein.
I find faux-Cap's color scheme a bit odd, what with the darker shade of
blue and the red trunks. Were they simply playing around with Cap's
look, or was this supposed to be a clue that this guy wasn't the real
deal? Certainly, by the time AVENGERS # 4 rolled around, Cap's
classic color scheme was back in place.
I also wonder if Stan was already cooking up the backstory for Cap's
return, which would be seen only a few months later. Johnny mentions
that he read Cap's comics when he was a kid, so, factoring in Johnny's
age, this would indicate that he's referring to the mid-50s revival...or
back issues from the 40s!
And, of course, in a wonky bit of meta-type continuity, Johnny knows
Cap's secret identity from reading the comics, yet Cap is referred to in
this story as a real person who hasn't been seen in years. I suppose
this isn't a big deal, since Cap's identity would become public
knowledge during his TALES OF SUSPENSE run, only a few years
later.
By the way, I recently read the second Masterworks volume of that run-
-Sinnott inking Kirby's Captain America. Glorious!!!
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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
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| Posted: 26 January 2014 at 3:06pm | IP Logged | 4
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FF # 21 introduces George Roussos as inker. Not really thrilled with the
look, but his inks are an important steeping stone in solidifying the
classic look of the Thing.
Also, this issue's reveal of the Hate-Monger's identity was gutsy, to say
the least, although Reed expresses uncertainty over whether or not
he's the real deal.
The now-Colonel Fury's guest appearance has me chomping at the bit
to check out that SGT. FURY Masterworks which I recently received.
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Gustavo C Cruz
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 March 2005
Location: Mexico
Posts: 112
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| Posted: 26 January 2014 at 7:44pm | IP Logged | 5
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Nathaniel Richards [31st century] --> Iron Lad [21st century] --> Nathaniel Richards [31st century] --> Pharaoh Rama-Tut [2950 BC Egypt] --> Scarlet Centurion [modern time (divergent timeline)] --> Kang [40th century] --> Victor Timely [early 20th century] --> Kang [40th century] ----/Avengers Forever divergence/----> Pharaoh Rama-Tut [ancient Egypt] --> Immortus [master of Limbo]
******
And to think that most of those contrived stories were done by people that cared about the characters! What can we expect from the people currently on charge?
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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
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| Posted: 28 January 2014 at 11:03am | IP Logged | 6
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FF # 22 is a fun issue which gave us several firsts--the introduction of
Sue's force-fields, the first "It's clobberin' time!", and the first mention of
Aunt Petunia.
...and I just read that Aunt Petunia was killed off by Doctor Doom, some
time back. Sigh.
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Brian Lewis
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 August 2012
Posts: 476
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| Posted: 28 January 2014 at 11:44am | IP Logged | 7
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Technically it was the Marquis of Death that did it. And the story involved so much reality hopping and such that would be be easy to ignore the part of the story that made Dr Doom billions of years old and a master of all black mystic arts.
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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
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| Posted: 30 January 2014 at 12:06pm | IP Logged | 8
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All of this reading has once again reminded me of just how radically the
Thing changed, in those first three years of FF stories.
I really do love the early, surly Thing, but the refined, "idol 'o millions"
version is also great.
Looking at all of those early stories in a row, it's somewhat shocking to
see the transition. Ben starts out as a very tragic, angry character--the
unpredictable "heavy". Very quickly, however, the sense of humor
kicked in, along with a big dose of ego (the "idol 'o millions, "Aunt
Petunia" and "It's clobberin' time" catchphrases, etc.).
This somewhat radical turnaround could be well enough explained by
saying that Ben employs gallows humor, and has become somewhat
adjusted to his situation. But, by and large, the Thing essentially
became a comedy relief character, in additional to physically becoming
"Fozzie Thing" much further down the line.
I'm of two minds on this change, because I love both versions. The
original, surly Thing was one of the unique elements that made the FF
a smashing success, but the humorous, tough-talkin' brawler version of
Bashful Benjamin is a heck of a lot of fun.
Thoughts? Anyone think Stan and Jack went too far in making Ben into
a lighthearted character, or is the evolved version superior to Marvel's
original grumpy brute (a spot which the Hulk soon took over).
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Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
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| Posted: 30 January 2014 at 7:47pm | IP Logged | 9
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I feel that "Bashful Benjy" isn't so much a replacement for the early-surly Thing as he is an addition to that basic characterization. Those tragic, self-pitying, and angry notes are all still present. Over time, however, we saw other sides and layers to the man. Had his sadness and bitterness vanished entirely, "Things" would be different. As it is, Stan and Jack were men with a sense of humor who gave us heroes with a sense of humor. This didn't make them less tragic or less heroic. In fact, it is to a large degree what makes them so human. Also, Ben's relationship with Alicia played a part in cracking that tough hide of his... :-)
Edited by Brian Hague on 30 January 2014 at 7:48pm
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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
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| Posted: 30 January 2014 at 9:13pm | IP Logged | 10
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As it is, Stan and Jack were men with a sense of humor who gave us
heroes with a sense of humor. This didn't make them less tragic or less
heroic. In fact, it is to a large degree what makes them so human.
Also, Ben's relationship with Alicia played a part in cracking that tough
hide of his... :-)
++++++++++
Yes, indeed. That being said, the period I'm reading at the moment
features a wisecracking Thing who is very jokey and faux-egotistical
about his appearance. Unless you know going in that he's unhappy
about his condition, those jokes and comments could easily be taken at
face-value.
Someone picking up FF for the first time during this era might not have
even have been aware that Ben is a tragic figure who hates being the
Thing!
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 30 January 2014 at 9:48pm | IP Logged | 11
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Someone picking up FF for the first time during this era might not have
even have been aware that Ben is a tragic figure who hates being the
Thing!
****
SER: As I think JB once said, "Would *you* get used to being the Elephant Man?"
If I tuned into a TV series in the middle of the run featuring a deformed co-star who "joked" about his condition the way Ben Grimm did about his, I'd presume he's engaging in gallows humor as a way of staying sane (as you mentioned).
Perhaps some of the confusion can be attributed to later artists drawing "Fozzie Thing" but, still, this is a guy with four freaking fingers on each hand who looks like he's made of rocks.
He's not Killowog -- someone from a race of beings who look this way. He was a normal* human being for most of his life.
*I don't know if you've reached it yet but there is an FF issue where we see Ben as human again for a while and it's commented on how "handsome" he is. Based on how Kirby drew him, he actually looks more leading man attractive than Reed and Johnny. Another casting issue, I think, with the more recent FF films. Ben Grimm in the comics was probably quite used to turning heads rather than having people run in fear from him.
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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
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| Posted: 30 January 2014 at 10:27pm | IP Logged | 12
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*I don't know if you've reached it yet but there is an FF issue where we
see Ben as human again for a while and it's commented on how
"handsome" he is. Based on how Kirby drew him, he actually looks
more leading man attractive than Reed and Johnny. Another casting
issue, I think, with the more recent FF films. Ben Grimm in the comics
was probably quite used to turning heads rather than having people run
in fear from him.
+++++++++
Haven't reached a "handsome" reference, as of yet.
Can't really agree, though, Stephen. As drawn in those early issues
(take a look at the origin flashback in FF # 1, or the Ben Grimm portrait
panel on the Thing's pin-up page in FF # 2), Ben is pretty rugged-
looking.
He's a college football star and a war hero, yes, but not necessarily
leading-man handsome.
The only real casting issue I have with Chiklis is that Ben is bald in
human form. That, and the fact that he has a gruff, "monster" voice as
the Thing, but that's a post-production problem, rather than a casting
one.
The hair-loss when Ben becomes the Thing is one of those more subtle
indicators that he's lost a ton of human reference points by becoming a
super-strong monster.
As I've noted in the past, it's a disservice to the character to treat him
as if he's just a bodybuilder with orange scales glued to him.
Ben Grimm has lost a heck of a lot of human frames of reference. No
hair, no nails, no ears, missing fingers and toes. Are his senses
affected? He can hear, see, and smell normally, but his sense of touch
might be pretty weird and/or diminished. He probably can't enjoy a
summer breeze or a foot massage.
Does he have to use a can of air-duster to blow-out the crevasses in-
between his scales? Is going to the bathroom a really difficult process?
And, of course, sexuality--even solo--is probably out of the question.
Assuming that his genitals still function in a human way at all.
All in all, when you really stop and think about it, Ben Grimm is a very
tragic character. And knowing that makes him a lot more heroic,
considering how he copes with it.
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