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Matt Hawes
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| Posted: 30 January 2014 at 10:44pm | IP Logged | 1
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Greg wrote:
| ...Thoughts? Anyone think Stan and Jack went too far in making Ben into a lighthearted character, or is the evolved version superior to Marvel's original grumpy brute (a spot which the Hulk soon took over)... |
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Ben looked like a monster as The Thing, but he was never really a monster. It made sense that he would be surly and unhappy with what happened to him in the beginning, but it also made sense that he'd learn to deal with it in his own way (such as humor). He also lightened up after meeting Alicia, too. I think it was all pretty natural.
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Matt Hawes
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| Posted: 30 January 2014 at 10:45pm | IP Logged | 2
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Heh. Brian said pretty much what I ended up saying. :-)
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Matt Hawes
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| Posted: 30 January 2014 at 10:48pm | IP Logged | 3
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Greg wrote:
...Someone picking up FF for the first time during this era might not have
even have been aware that Ben is a tragic figure who hates being the
Thing!... |
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You are just now reading these old stories, so it's all pretty fresh for you, Greg. For me, it's been some years for me since I last read them, but it seemed there was usually a reference by Ben or Reed, or someone to The Thing's condition and how Ben wanted to be human again in most issues at that time. Is that not correct?
Edited by Matt Hawes on 30 January 2014 at 10:49pm
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Greg Kirkman
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| Posted: 30 January 2014 at 11:00pm | IP Logged | 4
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You are just now reading these old stories, so it's all pretty fresh for
you, Greg. For me, it's been some years for me since I last read them,
but it seemed there was usually a reference by Ben or Reed, or
someone to The Thing's condition and how Ben wanted to be human
again in most issues at that time. Is that not correct?
++++++++
I should reiterate that I've read a good chunk of these stories before,
but this is the first time I've read them all, and in order. So, there's a
cumulative effect to recurring plot points, and format changes are more
noticeable.
There are many references to Ben's tragic condition in the first 20
issues, and he briefly turns human again in nearly every issue!
All's I'm sayin' is that, in the period I'm in right now (the mid 20s), Ben is
not being regularly depicted as tragic, nor is his desire to be human
mentioned in each and every issue, as it had been, previously.
Of course, the ongoing continuity of the growing Marvel Universe was
in full swing, by this time, so perhaps Stan felt he didn't have to be quite
so repetitive in every issue.
Not to say that the issues aren't still friendly to new readers, but it does
seems that Stan had slightly loosened up on recapping origins,
previous events, and briefly turning Ben human again for the sake of
new readers.
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Stephen Robinson
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| Posted: 31 January 2014 at 12:02am | IP Logged | 5
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Greg, I'll let you get to the handsome reference. It's during one of my
favorite periods for the book, especially regarding Kirby's art.
Oh, and a general question: Was it ever made canon that Ben should
be able to switch from The Thing to human form but for some reason
cannot? After all, Sue is not permantly invisible, the Torch is not always
on fire, and Reed isn't a pliable blob.
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Greg Kirkman
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| Posted: 31 January 2014 at 12:16am | IP Logged | 6
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Oh, and a general question: Was it ever made canon that Ben should
be able to switch from The Thing to human form but for some reason
cannot? After all, Sue is not permantly invisible, the Torch is not always
on fire, and Reed isn't a pliable blob.
+++++++++
Certainly! In case you don't know, JB himself established the idea that
Ben had the ability to transform at will, but his deep-rooted fear that
Alicia loves him as the Thing created a psychological block.
Indeed, a story I recently read had Ben actively refusing to try one of
Reed's cures, explicitly because of that fear.
Also, coincidentally, Ben turns back into the Thing upon his first
meeting with Alicia just at the moment where she expresses
disappointment that he's no longer the Thing. The script says that it's
because Reed 's cure has worn off, but it could easily be read as Ben
subconsciously willing himself to change back to the form that Alicia
seems to prefer.
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Greg Kirkman
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| Posted: 31 January 2014 at 2:53am | IP Logged | 7
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Yowza! FF # 25-26! Possibly the best story to date! Certainly the most
exciting, although not quite as epic in sheer scale as the first Annual.
These two issues also mark the first appearances of the crazy creator
credits and the No-Prize. We also get the see the FF's first real meeting
with the Avengers, which is the event that really solidified the concept
of the Marvel Universe, with direct references to events in other titles,
and major guest-appearances. Really, the story begins in AVENGERS
# 3-4, picks up here, and concludes in AVENGERS # 5, as the
Avengers return to their wrecked mansion.
This story is part of an important transitional period for the Hulk, coming
in-between his Banner-controlled days as an Avenger, and his defining
turn in TALES TO ASTONISH as an enraged brute who is distinctly
separate from Banner (whom he hates). Stan's poor memory in writing
this story also led to the creation of "Robert" Bruce Banner.
Best of all, we really start to see Kirby unleashed, here--this is the first
truly epic-scale battle of Silver Age Marvel, with tons of destruction and
powerful action.
Love it!
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John Byrne
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| Posted: 31 January 2014 at 6:48am | IP Logged | 8
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In case you don't know, JB himself established the idea that Ben had the ability to transform at will, but his deep-rooted fear that Alicia loves him as the Thing created a psychological block.Indeed, a story I recently read had Ben actively refusing to try one of Reed's cures, explicitly because of that fear. •• And that story was the inspiration for mine!! ++++ Stan's poor memory in writing this story also led to the creation of "Robert" Bruce Banner. •• Which I hated then, and hate still!! Why oh why couldn't Stan have acknowledged his goof AND LEFT IT AT THAT? Or at least given us Bruce Robert Banner? That was the first time I felt the real world intruding on my precious fantasies. Banner's name changes because the writer made a mistake? But, doesn't that mean. . . these aren't real people?? Six issues later, I stopped reading comics "for good." Coincidence?
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Michael Penn
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| Posted: 31 January 2014 at 8:09am | IP Logged | 9
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Thoughts? Anyone think Stan and Jack went too far in making Ben into a lighthearted character, or is the evolved version superior to Marvel's original grumpy brute (a spot which the Hulk soon took over).
***
That the Thing's character developed along one might say similar lines with his outward form becoming less grotesque (if not necessarily less monstrous) I do not mind. His deflecting humor (often accompanied with some scary violence, nu?!) masks perhaps only barely a psychological complexity offering so much more in the way of story-potential than a continually angry man.
I have wondered, though, if that first FF issue Thing was not actually larger than the original Hulk.
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Greg Kirkman
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| Posted: 31 January 2014 at 12:33pm | IP Logged | 10
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That the Thing's character developed along one might say similar lines
with his outward form becoming less grotesque (if not necessarily less
monstrous) I do not mind. His deflecting humor (often accompanied
with some scary violence, nu?!) masks perhaps only barely a
psychological complexity offering so much more in the way of story-
potential than a continually angry man.
I have wondered, though, if that first FF issue Thing was not actually
larger than the original Hulk.
++++++++++
I really feel a need to reiterate that I am not knocking the direction Stan
and Jack took with Ben's characterization. His use of humor to deal
with his pain makes sense--and, hey, it works for Spider-Man, too!
My observation is that a new reader might not have gotten that Ben
was unhappy about being the Thing, and taken the sense of humor at
face value.
Their is something inherently comedic about the Thing as he became,
right down to the number of fingers and toes. He can occasionally
come off as the wacky uncle--or even the big baby--of the group.
And, yes, is he pretty darn large in that first issue, isn't he? Of course,
by the time of FF # 25, the Hulk towers over him, at least on the cover.
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Michael Penn
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| Posted: 31 January 2014 at 12:48pm | IP Logged | 11
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Did you get to the Beatle wig yet, Greg?
Sometimes I wonder if having so early played pirate-dress-up with Ben opened Lee-Kirby up for more fuzzy humor.
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Greg Kirkman
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| Posted: 31 January 2014 at 2:01pm | IP Logged | 12
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Did you get to the Beatle wig yet, Greg?
++++++++
Should be coming up on it, soon.
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Topic Closed)
