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Brian Hague
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Posted: 27 October 2013 at 6:25pm | IP Logged | 1  

JB, I agree that simpler is better. I often wonder these days if the reason writers these days dawdle over the characters' origins is that they don't actually have a story of their own to move on to...

 

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 27 October 2013 at 7:56pm | IP Logged | 2  

In the case of GL, the ring chose someone fearless and presumably up
for the job as well. Hal is the sort of high-flying adventurer who would
take up the power and duty of the Corps and do well by the decision.
+++++++++++

...and then Peter David wrote that story where it was revealed that the
ring took Abin Sur's order literally, and performed a "psychic lobotomy"
on Jordan so as to make him totally incapable of fear...

Edited by Greg Kirkman on 27 October 2013 at 7:56pm
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John Byrne
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Posted: 28 October 2013 at 5:10am | IP Logged | 3  

...and then Peter David wrote that story where it was revealed that the ring took Abin Sur's order literally, and performed a "psychic lobotomy" on Jordan so as to make him totally incapable of fear...

••

Cuz, you know, we CANNOT allow these characters to be just naturally superior examples of homo sapiens. My dog! That would make them BETTER than us!!!

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John Byrne
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Posted: 28 October 2013 at 5:18am | IP Logged | 4  

I often wonder these days if the reason writers these days dawdle over the characters' origins is that they don't actually have a story of their own to move on to...

••

The writer's job has become a lot easier. Where once it was required that an ENTIRE STORY be told in six or eight pages, now six or eight ISSUES is more the norm.

When I was doing the first run on NEXT MEN, I allowed the stories to "meander". This was a deliberate choice on my part -- I was treating each story arc as a "novel", and allowed it to find its own borders. (In most cases, my years of training meant that worked out to about six issues, but that was LONG for me!) On other projects, before, since, and during the JBNM days, I worked to a more strict page count. "Meandering" was kept to a minimum.

Now, writers -- working full script, of course! -- will spend a PAGE on having someone fall out of bed, or spend an ISSUE on characters sitting around talking. In so many cases, comics have become the equivalent of hiring Anthony Hopkins to sit in a comfy chair and read WAR& PEACE while being filmed. The result is then declared to be a movie of WAR & PEACE.

Exploiting the strengths of the medium has become of minimal importance.

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Marcus Hiltz
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Posted: 28 October 2013 at 8:13am | IP Logged | 5  

...and then Peter David wrote that story where it was revealed that the ring took Abin Sur's order literally, and performed a "psychic lobotomy" on Jordan so as to make him totally incapable of fear...

••

Was that from the dreadful Action Comics Weekly run?  Bugged me then and it also bugged me that the Green Lantern feature (or Nightwing/Speedy) was usually voted as the most popular of the many features in ACW.  Wild Dog, Secret Six, Deadman, and Blackhawk were what I remember enjoying.

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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 28 October 2013 at 9:14am | IP Logged | 6  

Brian, there's a minor disconnect between what I've advanced and what you're arguing that I've advanced. To clarify it may or may not make any difference to our disagreement, but I'd like to correct the misperception.

For my suggestion that Barry instead became the lightning that struck Wally, you've used words like "selecting", "decide" and "unilaterally" to describe Barry's actions. And that's antithetical to what I suggested. Even you when referencing Fleming's story say that Barry acted "unwittingly" in his own origin, and that still holds true for my suggested variation. It's not a conscious choice on Barry's part to become the lightning that strikes himself (in Fleming's version) or Wally (in my suggestion). Rather, it's the way that fate unfolds. And I prefer fate in this case anointing a successor.

You evidently hold Fleming's story in much higher regard than I do. Where you -- and no doubt Fleming -- saw a "beautiful circularity" to the revised origin of The Flash, I saw an unsupportable paradox and (as I've argued) a missed opportunity to pass the torch. Call me fussy, but I don't see much of an improvement when happenstance and coincidence are explained away (such as they are) to instead become paradox. And, to my mind even worse, as you've mentioned it invites consideration that Wally is destined to become a similar paradoxical agent of his own origin.


Edited by Matthew McCallum on 28 October 2013 at 9:16am
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Mike Purdy
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Posted: 28 October 2013 at 9:38am | IP Logged | 7  

John, It's funny that you say the first run of JBNM meanders. I found it to be a page turner with a breakneck pace. I never felt like I was reading filler or anything that didn't advance the story. It was an exciting story with textures and layers.
I wish there were more comics produced with that skill. The ability to immerse the reader in a fictional universe, without winking to the reader.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 28 October 2013 at 11:46am | IP Logged | 8  

John, It's funny that you say the first run of JBNM meanders. I found it to be a page turner with a breakneck pace. I never felt like I was reading filler or anything that didn't advance the story. It was an exciting story with textures and layers.

••

Thanks! I DID try to meander to places that MATTERED!

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Jeff Stockwell
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Posted: 28 October 2013 at 12:13pm | IP Logged | 9  

"...and then Peter David wrote that story where it was revealed that the 
ring took Abin Sur's order literally, and performed a "psychic lobotomy" 
on Jordan so as to make him totally incapable of fear..."

I remember thinking at the time, if the ring could do that why did it need to choose Hal, who was hundreds of miles away. Why not pick the closest person and change him/her into Green Lantern? The whole psychic lobotomy means that the ring wasn't actually finding a WORTHY candidate. At that point, ANYONE could be a Green Lantern.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 28 October 2013 at 12:52pm | IP Logged | 10  

Didn't that same story suggest that Guy Gardner was the more suitable candidate, but Hal happened to be closer? I'm not sure if I'm remembering that correctly. 
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 28 October 2013 at 6:24pm | IP Logged | 11  

Michael, I recall that in the John Broome story which introduced Guy Gardner, it was put forth that Guy was equally worthy of becoming Green Lantern, but that Hal was closer. As a result, he was appointed as Hal's stand-in and first runner-up should Hal ever be unable to fulfill his duties and obligations as a Green Lantern. He was later said to be in a coma so that Denny O'Neill could pass that role on to John Stewart.

Matthew, your clarification does change the argument to some extent. I'll admit that I had misread your proposal and believed that it suggested that Barry was making the conscious decision to empower Wally and not simply serving as an agent of fate. We'll have to continue to disagree on the rest, however. Barry becoming Wally's bolt is still a paradox, just a less tidy one, and it still leaves us then with the question of who was Barry's? Jay maybe? Wally returning the favor? Who knows.

In Crisis, we saw that Barry was going back in time while dismantling the Anti-Monitor's device. Where was he going? Why was he being sent back in time? Fleming's story addresses these questions well, I think, and provides a way for Barry's end to serve some sort of purpose within the Flash mythos. You would prefer that he hand off the baton. I was happy with the paradox as Fleming presented it.

In any case, I prefer than the story be about Barry and not his successor. Wally got his own origin retold in that same issue. He didn't need two retellings of it in a single issue, did he?

It is nice having you back on the forum, by the way!



Edited by Brian Hague on 28 October 2013 at 6:25pm
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 28 October 2013 at 6:52pm | IP Logged | 12  

Regarding the Peter David revisionist GL origin, I remember that Hal was giving some sort of interview when he was asked about why the ring selected him above all others. When he responded, "Because I'm without fear," the host and the audience erupted into gales of uncontrollable laughter...

That burst of uncontrollable laughter in a David story is never a good sign that something worthwhile is coming...

 

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