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Topic: a not-so-funny thing happened on the way to this forum (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Ted Pugliese
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Posted: 17 September 2013 at 4:17pm | IP Logged | 1  

Sorry, Matt, but it does say he had a 'post' to bear (or a 'wood' to bear).
There is no 'cross' in the original Greek. That's the point. What did it
mean? It came to mean 'cross' and was then written as such in the
Vulgate (crux). However, like it was mentioned above, Jesus carried his
'stauros" and was hung on a 'xylon' at the place of the skull. Knowing the
Romans crucified people and knowing that pictures and engravings of
crosses date back as far as they do, I think it's safe (and more likely) to
suggest that Jesus (and Simon) carried his cross beam and was then
crucified and hung with it onto a tree or permanent post at this known
place of execution, where such things would be.

Now I don't care if you or John or anyone else here believes any of this.
I'm not here for that, and I respect your opinions and your right to them,
the same way I would hope that you respect mine. My point is simply this.
I am not rewriting anything to fit my modern perceptions. I am just telling
you what I think it means.

My crib notes: Two different words = two different parts of the cross.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Be good to each other!

Edited by Ted Pugliese on 17 September 2013 at 4:23pm
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Marc Baptiste
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Posted: 17 September 2013 at 9:53pm | IP Logged | 2  

Ted,

Please don't stop now.  I would love nothing more than to hear your parsing of words and rationalizations on "lying with mankind as with womankind". But for you, that one is probably crystal clear, right?

Marc
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Jodi Moisan
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Posted: 18 September 2013 at 4:56am | IP Logged | 3  

One final word on the mods and JB.  We have tons of discussions all the time about nearly every aspect of the board.  You don't see it because that's the role of a moderator.  The recent lock downs of the threads about Syria and Fox News, for example, were the direct result of a collective discussion and not just a single moderator acting of his own accord.

In one of the first threads I posted on here, I had several very outspoken members come at me, because I posted, "I would not let a childless man be my kids scout leader" or something to that effect. They came at me with both barrels. My intelligence was questioned in a very harsh way. I did not shrink away and whine to anyone. I stood toe to toe and defended my position. Long story short, my opinion did change. I became great friends with those guys and am glad, no one took a heavy handed approach and shut that thread down. The Fox thread and the final post that got it closed, I was NOT attacking anyone. 

 I don't follow a religion,this democratic government we live in, is my passion. I hold the principles of this great nation in high regard and  I do get passionate. (I have seen the same passion in the movie threads, when differing opinions are expressed, in just as heated manner.)  In this country, almost every important issue, have been fought with words, often very harsh words.  And it is done so because the issues are important and sometimes change does not come softly.

 As Craig pointed out, even those that feel the same on most things can disagree. I really like Craig and appreciate what he wrote up thread.  Thanks Craig you are a good guy!And I have even changed my opinion on some issues, like drone missiles. After a very heated debate with someone, I changed my mind about them. I was wrong in blindly defending the use of them.  But how sad if I had ran to the mods and cried and successfully shut down that thread before some changing of the mind. The gun debate should get heated and the idiots that want to have that Wild West mentality should be verbally smacked down. People are dying, lots of people and those that support the NRA are enabling the carnage to continue.

  I am an anti gun, atheist liberal who loves comics, coming to the JBF was by accident. I didn’t come here to become JB’s buddy; he is an artist I greatly admire and my son is a huge fan, I was searching out a verification of his autograph on a Christmas gift for Jon and also on buying Jon a commission for Christmas. Getting to know all of you was a by-product of my searching out info about JB. But it was great getting to know there were fellow atheists and people with political leanings like mine out there. Coming from Indiana it is hard to not feel isolated.  I feel so very lucky to get to know a lot of you on here and on facebook.

 If the mods are going to take a heavy handed approach and censor my posts constantly, I have asked to be removed from the forum.  I can still enjoy JB's work without being a member here. I enjoy coming here and anyone on here that knows me well, would agree, even if someone I never agreed with politically, needed something, I would be one of the first people to offer my help. But I do not want to belong to a place that on topics like religion, gun control,gay rights or politics, become a hand holding love in.Disagreeing with a person, sometimes strongly is OK. That was part of the charm with this site, I liked the honesty that was here. I liked that on this site you had to be honest with who you are. We are all adults here and we have free choice on what threads to visit. If you don’t liked heated discussions, stay out of them, it is that simple.  I for example, will NEVER go into a thread about circumcision again.



Edited by Jodi Moisan on 18 September 2013 at 5:01am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 18 September 2013 at 5:34am | IP Logged | 4  

Did you all notice what Ted did, there? It's pretty classic Christian dance moves.

He starts by arguing AGAINST the idea that Jesus was nailed up on a simple stake by saying HE believes what Jesus was compelled to carry to Golgotha (even tho only one Gospel says he was) was the "cross beam" not the whole cross. Then he quickly shifts to the other foot, so that "cross beam" becomes the "stake" referred to as stauros in the original Greek.

The Greeks, of course, being known for having a limited number of words in their language, so of course they would call a vertical stake and a cross beam the same thing. . . . . .

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 18 September 2013 at 6:06am | IP Logged | 5  

The Greek for beam is dokos. As in...

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"


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Trevor Phillip
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Posted: 18 September 2013 at 6:19am | IP Logged | 6  

I thought it was sort of historical record that some sentenced criminals carried their cross beam to their crucifixion, as a sort of public statement - the notion that Jesus carried the full cross just coming from artistic renderings of the story during the days of Michaelangelo etal. There's a ton of dogma that stems from no biblical source at all, but instead from the later fictional works about the story of God and heaven, etc.  For instance, Milton's Paradise Lost has imagery in it that's often discussed as if it came from The Gospel.  

regardless, it's pointless to argue that ANY written form of any gospel is accurate, as it was decades (and even centuries) before these oral traditions were committed to paper.  People forget that the "followers" of the ancient world were pretty much illiterate - so there was no purpose or means to record these fanciful stories on paper -- the stories of Jesus were told as Jesus told his own -- by word of mouth.  If anyone has ever played the "postman" game where a sentence is whispered from one person the the next -- it gets completely confused in a room of 30 people in 15 minutes -- try the same game with The Gospel over millions of people over centuries....

(don't get me started on Emperor Constatine)




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Michael Penn
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Posted: 18 September 2013 at 6:34am | IP Logged | 7  

The historical record shows that those the Romans executed by crucifixion were left to be consumed by wild animals.

Christians later concocted that the supposed figure of Joseph of Arimathea had spared Jesus' corpse that ignominy based on the Jewish book of Isaiah 53:9: "And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth."
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John Byrne
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Posted: 18 September 2013 at 7:27am | IP Logged | 8  

…the stories of Jesus were told as Jesus told his own -- by word of mouth…

••

Bart Ehrman, who has written some of my favorite books on Christian lore and history, has indicated that he begins his class semesters by informing his students that there is not one word in the Bible that was actually written by Jesus. Many are surprised to learn this!

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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 18 September 2013 at 7:27am | IP Logged | 9  

To the believers, Since it's the existence of god that is in question. It seems to me to be a hollow source to quote the bible to defend your position. Since the validity of the bible would be moot if god does not exist. Perhaps your arguments would be better served if there were other sources on which to build your foundation. 

The matter that you believe in god and the bible is unimportant. You are after all trying ti debate the topic with non believers. So having other credible sources I think would help your position.


Edited by Anthony J Lombardi on 18 September 2013 at 7:33am
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 18 September 2013 at 9:46am | IP Logged | 10  

Bart Ehrman, who has written some of my favorite books on Christian lore and history
--------------------
I'm surprised to hear this from you, JB, since his recent book was dedicated to demolishing your position that Jesus never existed. Or was that the reason for you saying 'some of your favorite...'?
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Thom Price
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Posted: 18 September 2013 at 9:52am | IP Logged | 11  

Perhaps your arguments would be better served if there were other sources on which to build your foundation.

***

I can't help but find using the Bible to prove the veracity of the Bible to be like using Action Comics to prove the existence of Superman.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 18 September 2013 at 9:58am | IP Logged | 12  

Bart Ehrman, who has written some of my favorite books on Christian lore and history

--------------------

I'm surprised to hear this from you, JB, since his recent book was dedicated to demolishing your position that Jesus never existed.

••

His book was aimed at a somewhat larger audience than me alone!

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