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Peter Martin
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Posted: 16 September 2013 at 7:02am | IP Logged | 1  

Five loaves, two fish. And then because the 5000 went so well, he fed 4000 with seven loaves and a few small fish.

No way these are the same thing told twice. Uh-uh, no way.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 16 September 2013 at 7:18am | IP Logged | 2  

Over the years, some have compared Superman to Jesus, especially given his "Jewish origins". There are some parallels, tho many force them where they do not actually exist. But one place where the parallel is strong is in the way the writers trapped themselves by making their central character too powerful, thus raising all kinds of questions that required backstory to be radically modified.

In the case of Superman, he sprang originally from a planet where everyone had the same powers he did. Much reduced powers from what we would come to think of (able to leap tall buildings, etc), but still the same. Superman came to Earth with those powers because it was natural for him to have them. But as the power level was constantly ramped up over the years, it became necessary to diminish the powers of Kryptonians on their native world, and invent reasons why Superman had them here, but nobody had them there.

In the case of Jesus, he is presented as having an astonishing array of super powers -- being able to create matter (the miracle of the loaves and fishes), resurrection (Lazarus among others), even the hurling of thunderbolts (remember that poor fig tree, guilty of not bearing fruit out of season?) -- yet when the Romans come for him, suddenly he is no more powerful than any other mortal. They torture and kill him with no harm to themselves.

The death of Jesus, in fact, presented a great problem for early believers. Nothing in Messianic Prophecy indicated that the Savior would be arrested, tried and killed as a common criminal. Prophecy had to be retconned in, to make it work. Jesus had to be recast as the sacrificial lamb. (Interestingly enough, early Christian art often portray a lamb being crucified, literally. There was a good deal of sturm und drang about the whole matter, including much contentious debate over the use of a cross at all, in Christian art, since its origins were pagan.)

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John Bodin
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Posted: 16 September 2013 at 8:01am | IP Logged | 3  

 John Byrne wrote:
I believe Jesus carried his cross beam, not his whole cross, and then he was crucified with it on his stake or tree, which were already at Golgotha and were known to be there where crucifixions occurred.

••

Only in John is Jesus portrayed as bearing the cross himself. In the other three Gospels, it is a man named Simon whom the Romans compel to do the heavy lifting. All four versions agree it was the entire cross that was carried. The notion that it was the cross beam alone is a much later invention, brought in when some folk took the time to calculate just how much the typical portrayal of the cross would weigh.

Another of so many instances, here, where people believing themselves "devout" rewrite Holy Scripture to suit their modern perceptions -- which, of course, undermines the very basis of the Faith.


Does anybody remember how OHOTMU classified Jesus strength-wise?

;-)

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Rich Marzullo
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Posted: 16 September 2013 at 8:18am | IP Logged | 4  

I've been thinking about this discussion a lot, and just wanted to point out a dichtotomy in Christianity: from my understanding, this religion was practically intended for the poor and downtrodden. For those who were in the minority and fighting against oppression and power. It's interesting, to me, that so many Christians try to paint themselves in that light while being in a place of power and enormous influence. There seem to be so many Christians in this society who decry that they are being oppressed, but they're making this claim from incredible seats of power. It just makes no sense.
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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 16 September 2013 at 8:32am | IP Logged | 5  

JB: In the case of Jesus, he is presented as having an astonishing array of super powers -- being able to create matter (the miracle of the loaves and fishes), resurrection (Lazarus among others), even the hurling of thunderbolts (remember that poor fig tree, guilty of not bearing fruit out of season?) -- yet when the Romans come for him, suddenly he is no more powerful than any other mortal. They torture and kill him with no harm to themselves.

SER: As child I always asked why suicide was considered a mortal sin when Jesus's actions are clearly suicidal. He knows someone close to him will betray him but makes no moves to protect himself. He doesn't use his demonstrated abilities to resist an unwarranted arrest. And he doesn't give much thought to what will happen to his known followers once he's gone. Is there possible deaths part of this great plan?

And can't Jesus "die for our sins" at any point? Most historical figures who were cut down before their time did not *voluntarily* allow it to happen. Jesus chose to "die for our sins" when his people were still occupied. He also died in disgrace, so it would actually be *more* difficult for his followers to continue his teachings.

Huh?

Even the encounter with Herod seems needlessly recalcitrant. You're charged with being a false prophet. Why is demonstrating your stated abilities as part of your defense somehow wrong?

But I know. Faith.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 16 September 2013 at 10:25am | IP Logged | 6  

So many of the problems presented by religions around the world is that they were created, and their holy books written, for very small and specific audiences. Jesus (if he existed, which is unlikely) was not talking to the "whole world". He was talking to Jews in Palestine. His intent, in his own words, was not to write over the Old Testament, but to FULFILL its prophecies -- tho just WHICH prophecies is still hotly debated.

Because the target audience was so small, for both the OT and NT, the world portrayed there is also small. Genesis does not describe the beginning of the Universe, but of the Earth, and there an Earth which is the center of everything, with the Sun, the Moon and the stars meaningless points of light which swing in obedient orbits around it. The writers of the books of the Bible barely thought beyond their immediate horizons. And the promised Messiah -- upon whom most Jews had pretty much given up by the time Jesus arrived -- was cast in that light, as a super warrior who would drive the invaders out of the Holy Land. The rest of the World, and all its hundreds of millions of people, was of no interest.*

This is why Christianity and other religions ultimately fail the most important tests. They do NOT represent the thoughts and plans of All Wise and All Knowing gods. They present the best guesses of very fallible mortals, all of whom were working with far less than the full information that would some day be available.

_______

*Estimates give the human population of the world at this time as around 250,000,000. About 100,000,000 less than the present population of the United States alone!

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John Bodin
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Posted: 16 September 2013 at 10:52am | IP Logged | 7  

FWIW, the Taoist in me tends to think of Jesus as the individual (or individuals) who essentially introduced Eastern thinking and concepts to the Jews for the first time, with revolutionary results.

I also tend to think of the Tao Te Ching as "Pre-Christ Christianity" -- you can't even begin to imagine the flak I take from some Christians for THAT line of thinking.

I find Biblical literalists to be quite tedious and boring.  Hence my personal creed, "Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who find it."

I also find it amusing that both fundamentalists (or literalists) and also many Atheists tend to spend more time quoting scripture than I care to even think about.  I did the prerequisite Bible passage memorization as a kid, and promptly forgot most of it, despite participating in a 4-year Education for Ministry seminar a little more than a decade ago (which, interestingly, focused more on Biblical history and the source/authors of the various portions of the Bible, rather than focusing on scriptural passages themselves). 

For me, I like the fact that there are times when I can find informative or reassuring passages and parables in the Bible when I find myself in a state of spiritual need.  Other than that, though, I really don't tend to think of the Bible as the "handbook" of my religion per se -- as with the Church itself, and the various Christian religious sects, it's all essentially the work of MAN, not God.  Hopefully informed by God, of course, but I'm a firm believer in the "free will covenant" school of thought -- God put it all out there, it's up to us to choose how we interpret things, how we react to things, and how we behave in the face of everything that matters. 

Apropos of nothing, of course, and probably only the most rudimentary and simplistic statement of my own personal philosophy, but this reflects some of the reasons why I can confidently state that there are plenty of "christians" who would gladly declare that I'm an Atheist or an agnostic, and not a "true" Christian.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 16 September 2013 at 11:57am | IP Logged | 8  

I also find it amusing that both fundamentalists (or literalists) and also many Atheists tend to spend more time quoting scripture than I care to even think about.

••

I'd be very interested in your views on how discussions like this can take place WITHOUT quoting scripture.

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Brad Krawchuk
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Posted: 16 September 2013 at 12:52pm | IP Logged | 9  

I find it interesting that most of the atheists and agnostics that I know tend to have a better grasp of the scriptures than any of the Christians I know. 

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Rick Shepherd
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Posted: 16 September 2013 at 5:27pm | IP Logged | 10  


Think about it, though - if you're an active, critical thinker with a healthy amount of scepticism, doesn't it make sense that you bother reading such things, to see if they hold up to scrutiny? Indeed, it'd be hypocritical to do otherwise - like with any scientific observation, even if something is almost certainly going to be proven bunk by doing so, it's still worth carrying out the experiments, in order to properly understand (and then be able to explain) WHY said bunk is, well, bunk.

And by the same token, doesn't it also make sense that blind faith is probably the best way to accept something as massively, inherently contradictory as your average holy book? Don't bother reading all those troubling bits that can't be reconciled via logic - just skim the famous bits and buy into the whole 'God is good' bit without giving it too much thought.


Edited by Rick Shepherd on 16 September 2013 at 5:30pm
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 16 September 2013 at 5:57pm | IP Logged | 11  

John Bodin wrote: "Does anybody remember how OHOTMU classified Jesus strength-wise?"

John, Amazing Spider-Man Annual #16 put him in the Medium-weight category...

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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 16 September 2013 at 6:54pm | IP Logged | 12  

Pfft. The real Jesus would be armed to the teeth, like the Punisher. NRA forevahhh!


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