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Martinho Correia
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 June 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 203
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| Posted: 05 September 2013 at 1:09am | IP Logged | 1
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There should be no attack. There is no clear evidence that that it was pro-government forces that are responsible, in fact just the opposite: http://www.examiner.com/article/breaking-news-rebels-admit-g as-attack-result-of-mishandling-chemical-weapons Assad's forces are advancing, so why would they do the one thing that would insure American interference? Seems awfully convenient for the rebels. Then there is this: A military strike at Assad's government IS ACTING AS AL QAIDA'S AIR FORCE. American involvement in the middle East has brought nothing but chaos to the region, from Iraq to Libya. Obama's choices have turned Libya and Egypt into centers of Islamic extremism. Stay out America.
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Pedro Bouça
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 1465
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| Posted: 05 September 2013 at 2:54am | IP Logged | 2
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There IS an UN investigation going on precisely as we speak. I think it's better to wait until they finish their work this time, isn't it?
If they can determine who did it, the government, the rebels or possibly even a third party interested in a conflict escalation, it will be possible to take better decisions.
Wait and see.
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Craig Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 November 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 1756
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| Posted: 05 September 2013 at 5:22am | IP Logged | 3
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According to international conventions, heads of state which gas their own people are to be taken before the Hague, not subjected to unilateral missile strikes by Sheriff 'Murica. Also, some 50% of the "revolution" against Assad is Al Qaeda. Are we really comfortable with being the AQ Air Force and Navy by doing their heavy lifting against Assad. Third, there's no articulation of a plan. Tactics are not strategies. Next up, Iran has a strong opposition against chemical weapon use. Remember when Saddam Hussein was gassing Iranian troops in 1988? 1) Iran did not respond in kind. 2) Last week it was revealed that the CIA provided Saddam with actionable intelligence on Iranian troop locations, knowing full well he would use the sarin on them. And he did. If it's evidenced that Assad is gassing his people, he's going to have to answer to other leaders in the Muslim world. The current President of Iran (Rouhani) has decent reformer support and even named a female Vice President. Former Iranian president Rafsanjani has already began condeming the use of chemical weapons by Syria (if the regime ordered it). The moment we attack, those fault lines will be meaningless and we will have set reformist movements in those countries back a generation. Why? So John Mccain and John Kerry can feel better. It's pretty sad when Rand Paul is the unlikely voice of reason.
Edited by Craig Robinson on 05 September 2013 at 5:26am
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Jodi Moisan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6832
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| Posted: 05 September 2013 at 5:23am | IP Logged | 4
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There IS an UN investigation going on precisely as we speak. I think it's better to wait until they finish their work this time, isn't it?
I agree we should wait until a full investigation happens. But if it is found out that he gassed his people I do believe we should remove him from power.
Let me do this, because like Joe, I am torn on this issue. I am anti war. but I am also 100% against standing by and doing nothing when a country gasses it's own citizens. I posted this on facebook and I will post it here.
The world stood by and watched Hitler do the things he did to the Jews and until Japan attacked Pearl Harbor we had a hands off approach. Then after the war we saw what had happened and the horrors that happened by a leader of a country, that gassed and tortured it's citizens. We did not have the technology to know everything that was being done. So again do we just stand by and let a leader gas it's citizens? I am anti war, I have a 17year son and a 26 yr old son, I do not want war. But I am also a mother that dies inside when I see the pictures of those babies that have been gassed. I am serious when I ask. What would you do if you are Obama?
If I were Obama I would get congressional approval, I would lay every fact out for the country to see and I would then go to the UN and plead the case and hope at some point we would, as a world population, would condemn any country that uses gas on it's own citizens.
As an American I would hope we would vote out the current congress, give Obama a congress that would close Gitmo and get rid of the patriot act. But if you think Obama has enough power to do what he wants, you do not understand how dysfunctional our govt. is at this point. Hell we can not even agree on giving health care to our people.
Edited by Jodi Moisan on 05 September 2013 at 5:46am
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Jodi Moisan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6832
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| Posted: 05 September 2013 at 5:45am | IP Logged | 5
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Pardon me if Obama's answer makes no sense to me. On any level. Also pardon me if I don't think a man who maintains an assassination list, who has killed hundreds of innocent civilians with drone strikes against those on his unilateral hit list, qualifies under any rational definition of 'a good man'. He gave up his moral authority a long long time ago.
Steve are you talking about the "assassination list" Bush also had? The by product of the Patriot Act? If that is the case, then again, give Obama a congress that will remove the Patriot Act. But the right can not condemn Obama for actions that were taken by the very ones they voted in. And again if this list is there because of that Act, how can the president get rid of it? What route would you take to get rid of it? I honestly d not know how the president can gut these things without going against an elected congress. But if you have the answer I would love to hear it? I also think we should shut down Gitmo, but again walk me thru that process.
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Martinho Correia
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 June 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 203
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| Posted: 05 September 2013 at 6:10am | IP Logged | 6
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To compare Hitler's rounding up and murder of millions of Jews to an act of war performed forces in a country embroiled in a civil war is a little too simplistic. And who exactly are we supposed to replace Assad with? Al- Qaeda? The canabalistic rebels who slaughter Christians? We have been down this road before. We know the results.
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Jodi Moisan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6832
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| Posted: 05 September 2013 at 6:14am | IP Logged | 7
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Matrinho what would you do if you were Obama? The cheap seats are called that for a reason.
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Craig Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 November 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 1756
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| Posted: 05 September 2013 at 6:19am | IP Logged | 8
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If I were Obama, I'd follow the international conventions that we are signatory to and also let the UN do it's job and get the information correct. I might also mention some kind of humanitarian aide or communicate how missile strikes accomplish any stated goal. I'd also state a goal.
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Martinho Correia
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| Posted: 05 September 2013 at 6:47am | IP Logged | 9
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Good question Jodi. Craig answered well. I would look for a way to get international cooperation and prevent this from spilling over. Obama does not have a single country agreeing with him.
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Martinho Correia
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Location: Canada
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| Posted: 05 September 2013 at 6:49am | IP Logged | 10
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Jodi, how do you propose America gets rid of Assad and who do they put in power? Cheap seats and all.
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Steve De Young
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Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3507
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| Posted: 05 September 2013 at 8:24am | IP Logged | 11
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Steve are you talking about the "assassination list" Bush also had? The by product of the Patriot Act? If that is the case, then again, give Obama a congress that will remove the Patriot Act. But the right can not condemn Obama for actions that were taken by the very ones they voted in. And again if this list is there because of that Act, how can the president get rid of it? What route would you take to get rid of it? I honestly d not know how the president can gut these things without going against an elected congress. But if you have the answer I would love to hear it?
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Drone strikes have nothing to do with the Patriot Act. Congress has passed no law which requires the President to maintain a 'kill list' of America's supposed enemies. Congress passed no law which requires him to assassinate them via drone strike without any due process. Congress passed no law which requires him to make said assassinations at times when there are civilians and innocents family members surrounding the target who are killed in the drone strike. Congress passed no law even allowing him to target U.S. citizens with drone strikes, yet Obama has done so.
And, btw, assassination is just as much a violation of international law as the use of chemical weapons. How do you propose that Obama ought be punished by the international community?
Also, btw, Jodi, you can't just dismiss anyone who disagrees with you as 'hating Obama'. The drone strikes Obama has carried out are immoral from the standpoint of human rights. I'm sure he's a nice guy who loves his kids and his dogs. He has, however, done some horribly evil things on the international stage which remove his moral authority to judge other world leaders.
And since you're all about the cheap seats, how about this: Answer my previous questions. What is Assad supposed to do? He has militant jihadist foreign fighters invading his country wanting to murder him and his family and take the country over, subjecting it to Islamic law. What precisely is he supposed to do to stop them that won't endanger or kill any civilians in the process? They're the terrorists. They're the ones attempting to take over a country. They're responsible for the casualties.
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Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3507
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| Posted: 05 September 2013 at 8:31am | IP Logged | 12
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And this is better?
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Than wholesale genocide? I'd say yes. And Israel will stand by and let it happen just like they did in Egypt and Iraq. Why would Israel do anything to protect Alawites, Christians, or Shiites? They don't even acknowledge the rights of Palestinian Muslims and Christians in their own country.
Oh, btw, I've got pictures, too:
These are just some of the children your 'good man' Obama has killed with drone strikes. I'm sure, if he does launch an attack on Syria, plenty more will be added to his list.
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