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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 04 September 2013 at 6:35pm | IP Logged | 1
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To add: I think Obama's intentions are basically good. He is right that Assad use of chemical weapons is beyond the pale; almost every nation has agreed by international treaty not to use them. He fears that this chemical attack, gone unpunished, will lead to a degradation of international norms. That's assuming other countries are run by mindless children, and in some cases they are. But to take unilateral action, against U.N. law, would also degrade international norms. There's just no right answer in this.
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Jodi Moisan
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| Posted: 04 September 2013 at 6:40pm | IP Logged | 2
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There's just no right answer in this.
Joe I agree with what you posted. The connection to 9/11 and Dessert Storm is right on the money. That is why attacking Iraq made no sense to me.
I do believe the right answer is to get congressional approval, go to the UN with concrete proof, Putin has stated if the proof is there, he will agree. Then let the UN earn their money. I agree we must get UN approval.
Edited by Jodi Moisan on 04 September 2013 at 6:43pm
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John Bodin
Byrne Robotics Member
Purveyor of Rare Items
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3911
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| Posted: 04 September 2013 at 6:47pm | IP Logged | 3
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If we go with "just" air strikes, Hagel said today that the cost "it would be in the tens of millions of dollars, that kind of range.”
Thankfully, though, Secretary of State John Kerry said at Wednesday’s hearing that Arab countries have offered to pay for the entirety of unseating President Bashar al-Assad if the United States took the lead militarily.
So maybe we can't afford to be the world's police force, but apparently we can afford to be the world's mafia enforcers.
Source: Washington Post - The House's Syria hearing
Pretty sure I don't feel good about this, because I'm betting Iran isn't one of those "Arab countries" that have offered to pay us to topple Assad's regime, given that Iran is Syria's staunch ally, and that it is predicted that "after a Western attack on Syria ... Iran will be forced to change its tone towards the West to a hostile one."
Source: Analysis - US Strike on Syria
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Brennan Voboril
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Joined: 15 January 2011
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| Posted: 04 September 2013 at 6:55pm | IP Logged | 4
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It might not be about oil directly but indirectly it is: Iran is a large oil producer. This is as much a strike at them as it is at Syria.
If Obama does this it is a gigantic mistake. It could become a large regional war very, very quickly. It is hard to see that the US really cares about democracy in the Middle East given they are allied with Saudi Arabia. If you're gay in Saudi Arabia good luck. If I am not mistaken gays in KSA are imprisoned, beaten or killed (and that is by the Saudi government). I have not heard a word about it from the president.
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Carmen Bernardo
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Joined: 08 August 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 3666
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| Posted: 04 September 2013 at 7:05pm | IP Logged | 5
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Per Joe's comment about the never-ending warfare, it is only recently that this mindset was pretty much suppressed in Europe. Realizing the horrors of war and their consequences has a lot to do with it, but the Europeans had a number of cultural and philosophical transformations which removed much of the machismo associated with warfare. Are the Americans not too far behind? I would like to hope so.
The problem that I see with the cultures of the Middle East where these bloody conflicts are taking place is that it is still very much a tribal culture, where manhood is equated with how many heads you can cut off (some of it encouraged by that strain of Islam which proclaims that you'd get a free pass to Paradise and seventy-two virgins if the head comes from a non-believer or heretic -- John's admonition against religion rings truer here). That much hasn't changed since Alexander's successors and the Romans, and before them the ancient conquerors from Assyria and the other Mesopotamian kingdoms. Hobbes's law of the jungle (desert) is in full display.
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John Bodin
Byrne Robotics Member
Purveyor of Rare Items
Joined: 16 April 2004
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Posts: 3911
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| Posted: 04 September 2013 at 7:17pm | IP Logged | 6
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Jodi Moisan wrote:
| And just to clarify since John mentioned that we ignore Africa, while an oil rich country has our interest. Syria is NOT oil rich, in fact they do not even get a place on the top 15 producers list. Canada has way more oil and hell they don't even lock there doors up there, it would easy to take their oil. So no this is not about oil. |
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Not about oil? You honestly there's anything that goes on in the Middle East region that isn't about oil? Syria may not be a major producer, but it shares borders with Turkey, Israel, and the Mediterranean, making it a strategic and well-positioned ally for those countries that are major oil producers (such as Iran, which is one of the top 10 oil exporters per your link, or one of the top-5 oil producers according to this link).
Syria's strategic value in the region more than makes up for the fact that it's not one of the top oil producers or exporters, so if it's not about oil, then nothing in the Middle East is about oil.
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Jodi Moisan
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| Posted: 04 September 2013 at 8:42pm | IP Logged | 7
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Iraq did NOTHING to us and we attacked them, it is one of the top oil countries and yet when I was saying it was about oil, I heard this cry from the right on this board "No way is it about oil and money". Now after a country gasses it citizens, a country that has no real oil value, our president wants to punish them for it, those on the right cry "It's about oil and money!!!!" .
Call me a dreamer, but I believe what Syria did was evil and should be punished for it. I hope the UN feels the same way. I don't believe people should profit from war. I believe that when we do take military action we do it, because it is the moral thing to do. I want a country that uses military force to protect human life, not bottom lines. And until someone can prove otherwise, I believe Obama is a good man that takes these moments seriously and puts great thought in how to handle it. And so far has done a good job.
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Steve De Young
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Joined: 01 April 2008
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| Posted: 04 September 2013 at 9:16pm | IP Logged | 8
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Call me a dreamer, but I believe what Syria did was evil and should be punished for it. I hope the UN feels the same way.
----------------------
1) Who did it?
2) Who are you going to punish?
3) How are you going to punish them?
Obama's answer seems to be that Assad probably did it, so we need to punish the innocent men, women and children of Syria by handing their country over to radical jihadists who promise genocide against religious and ethnic minorities.
Pardon me if Obama's answer makes no sense to me. On any level. Also pardon me if I don't think a man who maintains an assassination list, who has killed hundreds of innocent civilians with drone strikes against those on his unilateral hit list, qualifies under any rational definition of 'a good man'. He gave up his moral authority a long long time ago.
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Juan Jose Colin Arciniega
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| Posted: 04 September 2013 at 10:11pm | IP Logged | 9
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In shorth...NO!
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Jodi Moisan
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| Posted: 04 September 2013 at 10:18pm | IP Logged | 10
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who promise genocide against religious and ethnic minorities.
And this is better?
I get it you hate Obama, I don't.
But it is real easy to sit in the cheap seats, please tell me, do you feel no stand should be taken, if indeed Assad did gas these people?
Edited by Jodi Moisan on 04 September 2013 at 10:38pm
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Jodi Moisan
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| Posted: 04 September 2013 at 10:28pm | IP Logged | 11
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Obama's answer seems to be that Assad probably did it, so we need to punish the innocent men, women and children of Syria by handing their country over to radical jihadists who promise genocide against religious and ethnic minorities.
And Israel is going to stand by and let this happen?
Edited by Jodi Moisan on 04 September 2013 at 10:37pm
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Joe Zhang
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Joined: 16 April 2004
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| Posted: 04 September 2013 at 11:33pm | IP Logged | 12
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Another way to look at Syria is that it is yet another regional conflict that Saudi Arabia had a hand in creating, that U.S. leaders try to "solve". Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait because Iraq couldn't keep up with loan payments to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. The Taliban once looked to Saudi Arabia as their patrons and mentors. Syria would not have devolved into civil war were it not for Saudi Arabia's material support to the rebels. Egypt is now on the brink of civil war, thanks to Saudi Arabia's backing of the Egyptian generals. There's something very rotten about all of this.
Edited by Joe Zhang on 04 September 2013 at 11:36pm
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Topic Closed)
