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Marcio Ferreira
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2008
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2518
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| Posted: 04 September 2013 at 10:57am | IP Logged | 1
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Going to Syria would be a mistake. There is no easy fix, it is ludicrous to expect that Syria would become a Democracy if the rebels finally take the dictator down. The world doesn't need another Egypt, the most likely scenario is that extremists would take power and feed more hate to western nations (us).
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Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3507
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| Posted: 04 September 2013 at 11:16am | IP Logged | 2
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The Syria Govt gassed it's citizens!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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1) You don't know that. You think that, based on the limited information presented to you by the U.S. media on behalf of the U.S. government. That information has turned out to be false before (see both Iraq wars). In addition, even Senators going out to promote U.S. action in Syria, who receive the daily intelligence briefings, and have access to far more information than you or I, publically admit that it is not just possible, but plausible that the chemical attack in question was actually carried out by a militant group.
2) Even if it turns out to be true that Assad ordered the gas attack, he was not 'gassing his own people'. He was ordering a military strike against a portion of a city that was under the control of terrorist rebels. Nobody's a fan of chemical weapons, but shelling or bombing the same area would have produced similar numbers of civilian casualties. Did Abraham Lincoln kill thousands of his own people when he mobilized union troops to invade the South? Is he somehow not responsible for Sherman's actions as commander-in-chief? Terrorists are trying to murder Assad and his family, overthrow the government of Syria, and set up an Islamic fundamentalist dictatorship. How precisely would you like him to handle the situation? He should just get up and leave and let them destroy his country?
3) Lets say all the moral outrage about chemical weapons is completely legitimate. What precisely are you arguing? Assad used chemical weapons, so the only logical response is for us to turn one of the most powerful countries in the middle east, and its armories (including those chemical weapons) to Jihadists? The only current alternative to Assad are religious fundamentalists who are sworn to kill every Alawite, Christian, and Shiite in Syria. If you think 1200 is a horrible bodycount, wait until you see the millions of dead religious minorities under the new boss. There's been a bloodbath in Iraq and Egypt. The U.S. media doesn't report on it since troops left Iraq. Nearly one million Christians fled Iraq after Saddam was executed after a series of murders and church bombings and took refuge in Syria. The terrorists currently trying to take control of Syria currently have two Christian Bishops as hostages, they've beheaded a number of priests, and desecrated several churches.
I would like to politely suggest that anyone who favors the U.S. taking action against Assad commit to moving to Syria for a few months under the new management. Somehow, I doubt that's going to happen.
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Jodi Moisan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6832
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| Posted: 04 September 2013 at 11:55am | IP Logged | 3
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Vinny and yet the facts are there. There were no ties to Iraq and 9/11. We have already proven it was all based on a lie. There were no weapons of mass destruction. So why did we invade Iraq? Companies connected to the invasion made millions. These are not things I made up. But yet there is no financial gain for Obama. He told Syria if they used gas on their citizens there would be consequences. He is not putting boots on the ground, he is doing a missle strike. My guess is this, if congress approves of this. The UN will determine Syria did use gas and there will be a missle strike. Russia has stated if there is proof they will support it.
And I do believe we need UN support!
Edited by Jodi Moisan on 04 September 2013 at 11:58am
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Brennan Voboril
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 January 2011
Posts: 1741
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| Posted: 04 September 2013 at 12:34pm | IP Logged | 4
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What is the proof the Syrian government gassed them? Why would they do that? It seems to me the Syrians knew it would be suicide to do so and it would invite an attack by the US.
The US should release the evidence for the world to judge.
Russia did not exactly say they'd join an attack. To me that is spin. The story I read Putin called Kerry a liar and dismissed US claims as nonsense.
I am sorry but I am not buying Obama and Kerry on this one. |
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Vinny Valenti
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 8116
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| Posted: 04 September 2013 at 1:09pm | IP Logged | 5
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"There were no ties to Iraq and 9/11. We have already proven it was all based on a lie. There were no weapons of mass destruction. So why did we invade Iraq? Companies connected to the invasion made millions."
You are stating facts but that doesn't prove cause and effect. You forget that the "lie" came from Saddam pretending to have WMD's in the first place. You forget about his refusal to allow UN inspections which was a provision for the cease-fire from the end of the '91 war. A violation of the provision was grounds for the resumption of the '91 activities. Yes, there were no WMDs present by the time the US were able to inspect the sites once and for all. Did Saddam ever have them? Perhaps not. But he sure made it LOOK like he did.
It's really sucks that our intelligence was crappy. More heads should have rolled for that. But that doesn't automatically mean it's a lie. The Bush Administration (and the vast majority of Congress) at the time seemed to truly believe that the WMD threat was there. They ended up being wrong. In hindsight, I wish that we had never entered Iraq. But since I actually remember the situation at the time, I still understand why it happened.
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Rob Van Gessel
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 335
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| Posted: 04 September 2013 at 2:03pm | IP Logged | 6
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Vinny, you have wide open spaces between your own facts.
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Brennan Voboril
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 January 2011
Posts: 1741
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| Posted: 04 September 2013 at 2:25pm | IP Logged | 7
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Vinny funny, I've heard the US intelligence community knew that Iraq had beans. Didn't Colin Powell have an argument about going to the UN and offering that little vial because he said he knew he was wrong? I could have sworn he said that was the worst day of his career.
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Jodi Moisan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6832
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| Posted: 04 September 2013 at 4:07pm | IP Logged | 8
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And just to clarify since John mentioned that we ignore Africa, while an oil rich country has our interest. Syria is NOT oil rich, in fact they do not even get a place on the top 15 producers list. Canada has way more oil and hell they don't even lock there doors up there, it would easy to take their oil. So no this is not about oil.
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Michael Casselman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 January 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 1246
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| Posted: 04 September 2013 at 4:15pm | IP Logged | 9
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Companies connected to the invasion made millions. These are not things I made up. But yet there is no financial gain for Obama. He told Syria if they used gas on their citizens there would be consequences. He is not putting boots on the ground, he is doing a missle strike. My guess is this, if congress approves of this. The UN will determine Syria did use gas and there will be a missle strike.
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...Which will still lead to financial gains and profits for 'vast military industrial complex', which hasn't disappeared and is still as much a stakeholder as it's been for over a century.
Just because we don't have troops in the theatre doesn't mean some government contractor isn't going to get a piece of the action in all this.
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Jodi Moisan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6832
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| Posted: 04 September 2013 at 4:35pm | IP Logged | 10
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Not saying they won't Michael. There have been statements made, that Obama is either doing this because he is just plain evil or he is going to get very rich doing it. There is NO proof with either. There is only his successful track record handling military conflicts and capture of terrorists.
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Michael Casselman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 January 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 1246
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| Posted: 04 September 2013 at 4:48pm | IP Logged | 11
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And Embassy rescues.
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 04 September 2013 at 6:07pm | IP Logged | 12
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I think most of us here remember the conflicts of the 80's. Grenada, Panama, El Salvador. The Obama administration seems to want to frame their plans as a similar "limited military action". But there is no such thing in the Middle East; blood always follows blood. America went to war with Iraq to protect Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. Ten years later we were rewarded for that by Osama bin Laden, who believed the presence of American bases in Saudi Arabia, placed there against Iraq, was an affront to his religion. George Bush may have tried to right that mistake, by getting rid of Saddam Hussien altogether. The reward for liberating Iraq was never-ending urban warfare (which is still continuing without us).
Nothing is ever forgiven or forgotten in the Middle East. The Sunni-Shia conflict, which bedevils Iraq and Syria, is basically a political vendetta that started over a thousand years ago. |
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