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Craig Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 November 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 1756
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| Posted: 06 September 2013 at 11:22am | IP Logged | 1
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We aren't at war with Syria. If PBO assassinates Assad, he will have to rescind Executive Orders preventing assassination of heads of state. It also puts him in war criminal territory (even more) with the UN Charter.
Also solves nothing on the ground. Destabilizes region. Justifies war from Syria and allies.
But it would sure be cool on CNN, right?
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Thom Price
Byrne Robotics Member
L’Homme Diabolique
Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7593
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| Posted: 06 September 2013 at 11:31am | IP Logged | 2
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The plan is beyond useless; just the U.S. thumping its chest like a big dumb gorilla. Even if Assad is behind the gas attacks, what does our sending a few missiles his way prove, that we can bomb him? I'm pretty sure he already knows that, just as he knows we're incredibly unlikely to actually follow through beyond that. It's an empty gesture.
I had hoped this cowboy mentality would go away with the end of the Bush presidency, but I see that too has carried over.
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Monte Gruhlke
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3303
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| Posted: 06 September 2013 at 11:33am | IP Logged | 3
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Obama owns the two wars that were started and then mismanaged by Bush, providing the framework for the exit strategies for those two wars. To imply that everything was "set in place and on automatic" is ludicrous.
He also enabled the initiative that killed Osama Bin Laden. This is something Bush had already passed on, saying that it really wasn't a priority with him.
And time and time again, Obama has tried to close GITMO, but has been blocked by Congress every time.
Though Obama's effective use of drones have been overly criticized, drones serve as a welcome deterrent to actually putting boots on the ground and any resulting casualties.
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Brennan Voboril
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 January 2011
Posts: 1741
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| Posted: 06 September 2013 at 12:09pm | IP Logged | 4
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Jodi Obama can't hit sites with chemical weapons because the weapons would be released into the air killing the people he claims to want to protect. He has said he will degrade Syria's military. Do you expect Syria to sit there with their hands in their pockets as we hit them?
I believe we will have a full scale regional war if he goes ahead. I can't see how the world can't but have a full scale war.
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Jodi Moisan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6832
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| Posted: 06 September 2013 at 1:25pm | IP Logged | 5
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EVERYTHING I have heard the president say, is that the missiles would be a warning to halt chemical weapons. I have not heard him say once, he is going to war and plans on assassinating Assad. Bush made it very clear we were invading Iraq which we did, I do believe Obama is using this as a warning.
This just in:
The countries are Australia, Canada, France, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Saudi Arabia, Spain, Turkey and the United Kingdom.
Israel's President also has said he supports Obama's decision.
If he gets congressional support he should head straight to the united nations and get their approval.
My guess is Obama's red line stance will bring Assad to the peace table with Russia encouraging it.
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Jodi Moisan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06 September 2013 at 1:28pm | IP Logged | 6
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Brennan I believe you are right on not hitting the storage area of the weapons, but it will be military areas.
Do you expect Syria to sit there with their hands in their pockets as we hit them?
No, but I also think they are not going to commit political suicide, Assad does not want to give up power. As new countries line up on the side of Obama, it will put pressure to avoid a military action at all costs.
Edited by Jodi Moisan on 06 September 2013 at 1:32pm
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Monte Gruhlke
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3303
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| Posted: 06 September 2013 at 8:05pm | IP Logged | 7
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I can't see how the world can't but have a full scale war.
That is what was said of the first Gulf war, then the war with Iraq and Aftghanistan. The world is a whole lot bigger I think is given credit for, and most if not all nations are gun-shy when going up against the USA.
That is, of course, unless we keep backing out of ultimatums and diminish our world authority for fear of what terrorist organizations or extremist regimes (who, most likely, are only JUST holding on to their power).
The previous administration tried to make a stand with "it's the right thing to do." In this, I agree. We must step in to do the right thing, especially when no body else will. And no, wars shouldn't just be fought only over vital American interests such as oil.
We used to be much bigger than that narrow, self-serving ideology.
Edited by Monte Gruhlke on 06 September 2013 at 8:05pm
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Marcel Chenier
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Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2723
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| Posted: 06 September 2013 at 8:49pm | IP Logged | 8
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What deeply saddens me is the possibility of US (and Allied) forces killing a comparable number of Syrian civilians as Assad himself.
Jodi, I really do hope you're right about a negotiated peace. As far as I understand it, Putin has blamed everything but Assad on the use of chemical weapons. But for now, I will cling to your optimism.
Edited by Marcel Chenier on 06 September 2013 at 8:51pm
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John Bodin
Byrne Robotics Member
Purveyor of Rare Items
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3911
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| Posted: 06 September 2013 at 9:13pm | IP Logged | 9
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Monte Gruhlke wrote:
| And time and time again, Obama has tried to close GITMO, but has been blocked by Congress every time. |
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You're talking about the Congress that consisted of a House and Senate Democratic majority, the one that rammed the Affordable Care Act through without even reading all of it, just because it was the #1 priority at the time? The same Congress that could have used that same clout to go ahead and close Gitmo during Obama's first term?
Or maybe the president could have been able to broker successful deals for other initiatives like closing down Gitmo if he hadn't squandered all of his political currency ramming stuff like the poorly thought-out (and, again, not even fully comprehended before it was passed) Affordable Care Act down his opponents' throats during the first half of his first term, when a unified, Democratic majority should have given him anything but divisiveness?
Speaking of Gitmo, Monte, are you down with the idea of the government moving the detainees at Gitmo to a designated prison within your own state? There was talk of utilizing an Indiana prison to house the Gitmo detainees as a part of the potential Gitmo closure, and if I recall, that idea was NOT very well-received by Hoosiers:
No Gitmo detainees to Indiana
Other states were similarly opposed:
Kansas slams door on idea of Gitmo detainees
Plan to move Gitmo detainees to Illinois sparks concerns
Closing Gitmo may be a good/popular idea, but what do you DO with the detainees? If housing them in our own "backyard" on U.S. soil is not viewed as a good idea, then surely nobody would advocate simply turning them loose.
So, yeah, good idea, but as with many aspects of this presidency, good ideas with no viable implementation plan equals failure, or at the very least mediocrity and unfulfilled promises (that were most likely unfulfillable in the first place).
Gitmo. Affordable Care Act. Now Syria?
Hope and change, baby.
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John Bodin
Byrne Robotics Member
Purveyor of Rare Items
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3911
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| Posted: 06 September 2013 at 9:17pm | IP Logged | 10
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Jodi Moisan wrote:
Do you expect Syria to sit there with their hands in their pockets as we hit them?
No, but I also think they are not going to commit political suicide, Assad does not want to give up power. |
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But . . . if Hussein didn't have WMDs and he was just bluffing, then didn't he effectively commit political suicide by claiming that he did, which in turn baited the Bush administration to invade in the first place? I'm pretty sure that was discussed up-thread.
If it was good enough for Hussein, are we to believe that just because we have a different president in charge, the mad, despotic middle eastern leaders who don't want to give up power aren't capable of the same level of hubris that Hussein exhibited before the Iraq invasion?
Or is this where "Hope and Change" carries the day by producing different outcomes?
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Marc M. Woolman
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Joined: 17 April 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 2096
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| Posted: 06 September 2013 at 10:14pm | IP Logged | 11
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The Affordable healthcare act was debated in congress for over a year before it was passed. That's hardly "ramming" it through.
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Jodi Moisan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6832
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| Posted: 06 September 2013 at 10:25pm | IP Logged | 12
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Marc stop trying to put facts in the way of John's Hyperbole!!!!
You're talking about the Congress that consisted of a House and Senate Democratic majority,
Here John government 101:
There are two types of majorities in govt. A simple majority and A super majority .
The difference is, that a simple majority is not strong enough to force a bill though, it takes a super majority to do that, which the dems did not have.
I laugh when republicans do what you just did, you spout that fact like they have scored some big talking point against dems, when in reality anyone with a high school govt class education, knows that a majority can mean two different things in our govt.
Either you do not understand how govt works or you are trying to tell lies, which is it?
John my son was covered under our insurance while he worked for free as an intern, trying to get a job after Bush and the republican controlled house and senate, drove the economy into the ditch. Thanks to Obamacare he was covered until he was 26, he didn't have to go uninsured. My guess, your kids will stay on yours the same way Jon did. I am guessing you will not refuse that option and let you kids sink or swim. Because it's a good thing. The majority of Americans want healthcare, the election proved that. He was elected twice. It is high time, the people that lost get over it .
The republicans have tried to repeal Obamacare 40 times,
Their reason, even though they know it will never pass is this:
“We’ve got 70 new members who have not had the opportunity to vote on the president’s health care law. Frankly, they’ve been asking for an opportunity to vote on it, and we’re going to give it to them,”
The cost to the tax payers for the R's continued repeal obamacare push: around 55 million. 55 million!
Obama has tried to close gitmo and can not get the votes, that is not Obama's fault. I think it is so funny you condemn him when the very people YOU vote into office, is exactly the people that block him from closing it. And you have the nerve to condemn him for trying, when it's people like you, that is the reason we still have that albatross around our necks. You want to condemn someone for having gitmo still open, go look in a mirror. That is your party's shame not mine .
But . . . if Hussein didn't have WMDs and he was just bluffing, then didn't he effectively commit political suicide by claiming that he did, which in turn baited the Bush administration to invade in the first place? I'm pretty sure that was discussed up-thread.
If it was good enough for Hussein, are we to believe that just because we have a different president in charge, the mad, despotic middle eastern leaders who don't want to give up power aren't capable of the same level of hubris that Hussein exhibited before the Iraq invasion?
John seriously you are like watching the dog chase his tail. You know what let's just see how this all plays out and see who is right. Obama is an intelligent guy and up to this moment , IMO he has handled things pretty damn well. I see him doing the same with this event. If I am wrong and he takes the Bush path and gets us bogged down in a major war, I will admit I was wrong. But if it turns out how I think it will, then you need to admit you were wrong.
Edited by Jodi Moisan on 07 September 2013 at 6:07am
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Topic Closed)
