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Thom Price
Byrne Robotics Member
L’Homme Diabolique
Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7593
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| Posted: 05 September 2013 at 8:36am | IP Logged | 1
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We're mad at you for killing your citizens, so we're going to drop bombs on you and kill more of your citizens. Perfectly logical, right? I'm sure Assad will be polite enough to just sit in the middle of a field on a bull's eye for us, and luckily no missile has ever killed an innocent citizen.
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Thom Price
Byrne Robotics Member
L’Homme Diabolique
Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7593
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| Posted: 05 September 2013 at 8:49am | IP Logged | 2
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Drone strikes have nothing to do with the Patriot Act.
***
When the history books get around to Obama's presidency, his section will be so easy: "Everything was Bush's fault."
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Brennan Voboril
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 January 2011
Posts: 1741
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| Posted: 05 September 2013 at 9:12am | IP Logged | 3
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Jodi do you also support Obama's drone strikes?
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35927
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| Posted: 05 September 2013 at 9:20am | IP Logged | 4
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There are no easy answers. That said, I know that I always feel uncomfortable when the talk turns to the United States deposing the leader of a country. At the end of the day, there are many nations where a change in leadership would help the citizens of their respective countries because the atrocities committed against the populous are abhorrent. Questions that arise for me are why one country over another? What's the line? Is it just chemical weapons such that it becomes OK to commit genocide as long as they aren't employed? Darfur springs immediately to mind. And what are the ramifications of deposing a leader? Who fills that void? In the case of Syria, I don't think it's as simple as allowing the radicals to take power because they are somehow seen as the victim in all of this. To me, it feels like replacing one devil with another. The US certainly won't have a say in Syria going forward. Opinions, sure. But without boots on the ground (which I certainly don't advocate), we'd be helping depose a leader and then leaving Syria to pick up the considerable pieces on it's own. Personally, I don't feel good about that at all.
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Jodi Moisan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6832
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| Posted: 05 September 2013 at 10:22am | IP Logged | 5
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Brennan I think anything that kills so easily is bad. I believe Obama needs to get congressional approval, let the UN finish their findings and do not go into this without UN support. I do think something needs to be done. Now several of you have said Obama plans to assassinate Assad, has he said that? Or has he said he is going to strike what ever location the gas attack came from? Because some on here are throwing that around and that is two completely different things What is Assad supposed to do?He has militant jihadist foreign fighters invading his country wanting to murder him and his family and take the country over, subjecting it to Islamic law. Not gas children to begin with. I am at work and can not fully respond, because of the holiday the bank is getting hammered. I will respond later.
Edited by Jodi Moisan on 05 September 2013 at 4:21pm
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Jodi Moisan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6832
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| Posted: 05 September 2013 at 4:35pm | IP Logged | 6
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OK I am off work. It was a busy day but a good one, my co workers gave me a Star War themed birthday. My manager greeted me in the morning dressed as Princess Leia, I had a Star War themed sign, a co worker made light sabers out of swimming noodles for all of us, the food was all SW named Chewbroccoli with Yoda yogurt dip, Ham solo sandwiches and A&W root beer (not SW, just my favorite). And a bag of SW swag. It was one of the best birthday party I have ever had!!!!! (real birthday is on Saturday :0)
OK Steve post a link to the info about the assassination list, What is it's real name? The picture you posted is terrible, you will get no argument from me on that. But the cause of it, I need details to make a judgement. Were citizens the target of the missile? Or were they killed by a misfired missile? Are the drone missiles being used to target combatants and hitting residential neighborhoods?
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Jodi Moisan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6832
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| Posted: 05 September 2013 at 4:53pm | IP Logged | 7
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Steve this article, is it what you are talking about?
From another article:
On the political side, the American president’s warning that chemical weapons use constituted a “red line” looked increasingly empty. Intelligence services in a number of countries have concluded that Assad used chemical weapons on several occasions. Even U.S. intelligence said months ago that Syria had already crossed that line, but the Obama administration did not respond. That sent a signal—incorrectly, it turns out—that Obama’s preference for staying out of the Syrian conflict would protect the Syrian regime from Western intervention.
On this particular occasion, the alleged use of sarin fits the Syrian army’s practice. The pattern for regime forces has been to bomb rebel-held areas from a distance, with conventional artillery or from the air, occasionally adding chemicals to that assault. After softening the target and flushing out the opposition, government forces go in with tanks and infantry to secure the areas and return them to government control.
That seemed to be exactly what was going on in the eastern suburbs of Damascus on Aug. 21.
The use of WMD would fit the Syrian military’s practice of pounding rebel areas before sending in tanks and infantry. Ghouta had become a particularly stubborn target in an area crucial for its access to the capital and communications with other government-held areas.
Chemical weapons not only work to flush out rebels from their position, they also serve the sinister purpose of spreading fear among the population, killing civilians—including hundreds of children in this case—which sends a message to fighters and nonfighters alike. To the rebels it says, “Your families will not be safe.” To the neighborhoods watching the unfolding horror, it says, “You’d better keep the rebels out of your streets.”
Syrian army's 4th Armored Division, commanded by Assad's younger brother, Maher al-Assad, is the only unit that possesses launching devices for chemical weapons.
Edited by Jodi Moisan on 05 September 2013 at 5:02pm
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Jason Mark Hickok
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 February 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 10472
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| Posted: 05 September 2013 at 6:31pm | IP Logged | 8
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This is always a tough call. My gut says no. This after being behind the
Iraq/Afghanistan invasion. I just see no good or quick ending in this.
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Craig Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 November 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 1756
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| Posted: 05 September 2013 at 7:28pm | IP Logged | 9
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A relatively recent study indicates that in a 4 year period under PBO, his drone strike program killed innocent civilians 98% of the time. So what are we really talking about here? From where do we get the nerve? From where do we get the moral authority to do this, knowing it will only beget more blood?
http://web.law.columbia.edu/human-rights-institute/counterte rrorism/drone-strikes/counting-drone-strike-deaths
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Jeremy Simington
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 April 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 687
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| Posted: 05 September 2013 at 7:40pm | IP Logged | 10
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The more I learn about Syria, the more certain I become that military intervention is a dangerous folly. Assad is terrible, no doubt. The word "monster" is completely apropos. However, the rebel opposition appears to be licking their chops at the prospect of unseating the Alawites and immediately murdering all of them, as well as any other groups they find undesirable. I find myself thinking, "What if the KKK and the Taliban went to war with each other?" Would I find myself rushing into the fray, at grave risk to my own interests and with high risk of disastrous, unforeseen consequences? Maybe this is a fallacious comparison. However, I can't see the upside to any intervention other than financial and logistical support for humanitarian efforts.
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 05 September 2013 at 8:56pm | IP Logged | 11
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Dr. Doom vs the Red Skull. Do we reallly have to take a side?
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Jodi Moisan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6832
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| Posted: 05 September 2013 at 9:39pm | IP Logged | 12
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From the article above: "However, an analysis by the New America Foundation says that the civilian casualty rate from drone strikes has been dropping sharply since 2008 despite the rising death toll. "The number of civilians plus those individuals whose precise status could not be determined from media reports -- labeled 'unknowns' by NAF -- reported killed by drones in Pakistan during Obama's tenure in office were 11% of fatalities," said Bergen. "So far in 2012 it is close to 2%. Under President Bush it was 33%." My question is this, if as far back as Bush, we've had little success with drone missiles, why doesn't congress stop allowing their use? They hold the purse strings. This weapon seems to be like blowing up your house to kill the spider on the wall.
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