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Greg Woronchak
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Posted: 29 July 2013 at 10:31am | IP Logged | 1  

I like the idea as well; such 'radical' thinking would perhaps save printed comics (sigh).



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John Byrne
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Posted: 29 July 2013 at 11:27am | IP Logged | 2  

If you have to go back and change history to justify your version of the character, don't. Just don't.

••

The last thirty years of X-Men comics just disappeared, and a small pain in the back of my skull went with them. . .

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John Byrne
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Posted: 29 July 2013 at 11:49am | IP Logged | 3  

A perhaps interesting point that comes from this discussion might be a consideration of just WHEN the natural evolution of a character becomes "changing history".

Consider Superman, the daddy of them all. When introduced, he came from a "race of supermen". Everyone on Krypton could do what he did, because they were evolved far beyond humans on Earth. What he could do, of course, was leap an eighth of a mile, run faster than a locomotive, and be effectively invulnerable against anything up a a "bursting shell". No flight, no vision powers, no full invulnerability.

Flight came from the first cartoons -- it was easier to animate. The radio series gave us kryptonite -- the actor playing Superman wanted a vacation. Quite quickly, in fact, Superman's powers got ramped up, until he was flying thru space and even between stars. Which complicated his origin, if everyone on Krypton could do what he did. So the retcons started to slip in. People on Krypton were pretty much like thee and me, except that Krypton had an enormous gravity, which meant that Superman's muscles, evolved to deal with that, gave him superhuman strength here on Earth. Somehow, this also allowed him to fly. Radiation from our "yellow sun" was absorbed by his alien cells and gave him the vision powers and other things.

But all of this constitutes "changing history" to justify the current version of the character. Without this, Superman would still be leaping tall buildings and avoiding artillery ranges. The changes crept in before any of us were born, of course, and as with so many things in comics, "continuity" means "since I started reading".

Then DC did something that REALLY muddied the waters. A delightful little story -- intended as a one-off -- called "The Flash of Two Worlds" established that Jay Garrick, the "Golden Age Flash", actually lived on a parallel Earth. That explained how "our" Flash, Barry Allen, could be seen reading an old FLASH comic in his own first outing. An accident propelled Barry, some time later, into that parallel world, and he and Jay shared an adventure.

Unfortunately, this got some fans thinking. If the Flash existed on that other Earth -- soon to be dubbed, for not quite logical reasons, "Earth 2" -- did Green Lantern? Hawkman? The Atom? All those Golden Age characters whose books had been canceled? Eventually DC answered that question, "Yes".

But that only raised an even more difficult set of questions. What about characters like Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Arrow, who had had unbroken runs since their publication began in the Forties. DC tried to dodge that bullet for a while, but eventually the Fans-turned-Pro started to make their presence felt, and those characters also appeared on Earth 2.

Which raised the question "When did the Earth 2 characters 'end" and the Earth 1 characters 'begin'?" That debate raged for a long, long time without any satisfactory answer. (Batman's "new look", introduced in the Sixties, was for a while considered the "beginning" of his Earth 1 adventures -- even tho he had an established career predating the redesigned outfit.)

ALL of these things were cases of changing history to justify the current versions of the characters. And these were the things that led the overly-anal fans and fans-turned-pro to declare that CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS was "necessary" to clean up the mess. And it did that SO successfully, right?

The reality is, American superhero comics had several decades of "history" being rewritten, before the fans started to take over, and not a whole lot of people worried about it. When someone wrote in to ask awkward questions, the editors usually responded by NOT RESPONDING. Only when organized fandom began to form out of the primordial soup did it become increasingly difficult to simply ignore the questions. The fans weren't just asking the editors any more. They were asking EACH OTHER. Which mean everybody knew the questions were being asked.

And questions asked HAD to be answered, right?

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Bob Simko
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Posted: 29 July 2013 at 11:59am | IP Logged | 4  

 JB wrote:
Flight came from the first cartoons -- it was easier to animate.


I'm amazed it took 2 years for the comics to catch up with this!
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 29 July 2013 at 12:04pm | IP Logged | 5  

A perhaps interesting point that comes from this discussion might be a consideration of just WHEN the natural evolution of a character becomes "changing history".

***

For me, the X-Men is the exemplar in this regard. I started with Neal Adams, found Kirby's old issues soon after, went along with the "new" team because they didn't trample on the original team, and enjoyed above all the Byrne years. Post-JB, I'm quite happy to delete everything that happened because I think one could view the X-Men from 1963 to 1980 as naturally evolving (taking each team independently in terms of their runs, yes, but still taking all together all of the characters, many of whom continued from old to new), while after 1980 it was all about gratuitously "changing history." Cyclops from the beginning to Byrne -- pretty much the same, nu? Storm from '75 to Byrne -- same, right? Afterwards....?!
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Jack Michaels
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Posted: 29 July 2013 at 12:07pm | IP Logged | 6  

As I've said before, I'm not much of a comic fan; I've read a fair bit but it's just all over the place and I don't really have any particular affinity to any particular version. 

But my experience with the Expanded Universe of Doctor Who has shown me the difference between a writer who rewrites history because he's not paying terribly much attention to what has come before (or just ambivalent toward it) and one who is embarking on a crusade to prune past stories so his version of Doctor Who is the one, true one. 

The first is fairly natural and pretty much describes why Who continuity is the fun mass of contradictions that it is today; the second group are the ones responsible for fragmenting Who fandom in the mid-to-late 90s because they needlessly and consciously contradicted other stories to stake out their claim as the writers of the one, true 8th Doctor. 

It's not hard to identify the three or four writers who made a shambles of the whole thing. 


Edited by Jack Michaels on 29 July 2013 at 12:11pm
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Brad Hague
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Posted: 29 July 2013 at 1:39pm | IP Logged | 7  

Perhaps the idea is great. Perhaps it is swinging the pendulum too far in the other direction.

What I loved about Marvel Comics in the late seventies and early 80's was their sense of history and realism compared with the "cartoonish" CD stories (New Teen Titans excepted).

I loved the footnotes and sense of history. The sense that each issue counted and meant something. This spurred me on to ensure I rode my bike the 3.5 miles each way to the comic books store and got my stash to see what happened to my friends/heroes. It spurred me on to track down those old issues where those things happened that were being referred to.

Granted, it has become a joke and at this point the sense of "archeology" is ridiculous for both what is ignored (the character of Cyclops and Prof. X) as well as for what has been completely ret-conned over and over.

I don't know if what JB proposes would fix it. It probably would stop some of the damage. But ultimately it would end up being like the DC of the 60's and 70's where nothing really mattered. Why would I (as a young teenager) buy a Superman comic when 12 issues from then, that story would have meant nothing.

I can still ready my Uncanny X-Men issues from 1-150 and enjoy them. But I can't read, for example, issue 200 the Trial of Magneto, because it didn't matter that that happened. Nothing of that story has survived to have it make any meaning for me. Likewise, I can not longer read Uncanny X-Men 201 where Storm beats Cyclops as leader. That no longer has any meaning to me or to the comicbook world. It is apparently the first appearance of Cable, but that also has no meaning to me. I don't even know who that character is anymore.

Ultimately, I suppose it explains why I no longer read current comics. I suppose whichever way the pendulum swings on this issues, it is too late for me in the Marvel and DC worlds.
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Greg Woronchak
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Posted: 29 July 2013 at 2:00pm | IP Logged | 8  

the editors usually responded by NOT RESPONDING

A good point; editorial should also put the kibosh on stories that further 'muddy the waters' or don't follow a 'timeless' model where continuity isn't set in stone.

Nowadays, it seems that writers and their fanfic have free reign, with little 'guidance', IMO.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 29 July 2013 at 4:14pm | IP Logged | 9  

I'm not proposing a "fix" here. The bell has rung -- multiple times. Merely speculating on might have beens.
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Jeffrey Rice
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Posted: 29 July 2013 at 8:46pm | IP Logged | 10  

There were great 70's Brave and the Bold issues where Batman, clearly modern day, just meets up with Wildcat and goes on a mission. No backstory, no editorial aside about the larger diameter of Earth 2*, etc.

* Yes, one of the explanations for the slower aging of the JSA was a larger Earth 2!
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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 29 July 2013 at 8:56pm | IP Logged | 11  

What he could do, of course, was leap an eighth of a mile, run faster
than a locomotive, and be effectively invulnerable against anything up a
a "bursting shell". No flight, no vision powers, no full invulnerability.

---

JB, isn't the Superman you describe here the one we met in the first
issue of GENERATIONS? That's the Superman I'd be interested in
reading about right now.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 29 July 2013 at 9:36pm | IP Logged | 12  

As I'm currently reading the Superman (and Batman) CHRONICLES
volumes, I've gotta say that I'm loving those early stories. Very clean
and simple. Continuity isn't a concern.

FUN is.
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