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Steven Myers Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 10 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5646
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Posted: 08 July 2013 at 6:20am | IP Logged | 1
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The next generation characters would be cool to see. •••
Based on...?
----
Spider-Girl, and Generations are some good examples. I was thinking the other day about how people see the current Foneboneman or whatever and say "That's not Foneboneman" because the character has changed too much. Perhaps it would be better if the current was NOT the original?
Or perhaps not. There are still some writers who handle older characters well and make then current without the need for reboots and restarts.
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Brian Lewis Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 13 August 2012 Posts: 476
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Posted: 08 July 2013 at 7:16am | IP Logged | 2
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Yes. I think it is perfectly okay to move heroes on to make room for the next generation. Old readers need to let go, and say goodbye or embrace change designed for the Millennials and Generations Z as opposed to those set for a Baby Boom generation.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132669
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Posted: 08 July 2013 at 7:41am | IP Logged | 3
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Spider-Girl…•• An "imaginary story" +++ and Generations are some good examples. •• I got plenty of complaints from readers who did not like Bruce Wayne Jr as Batman. No guarantee, is there, that the "next generation" of characters will be as good as what we already have. In fact, given the available talent. . . +++ I was thinking the other day about how people see the current Foneboneman or whatever and say "That's not Foneboneman" because the character has changed too much. Perhaps it would be better if the current was NOT the original? •• Or perhaps it would be better if editors actually did their jobs.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132669
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Posted: 08 July 2013 at 7:51am | IP Logged | 4
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Robin turned into a much older character virtually over night. He then aged even more, to become NightWing, while other characters seemed not to age.Even if there was some kind of consistent "plan" -- virtually impossible given the egos involved -- how would the aging of characters be handled? Real time? Sliding scale? And how old would the characters become before they handed over the job to someone else? Let's take Peter Parker. He aged for the first few years of his book, but then Stan put the brakes on when he realized Marvel really was going to stick around for a while this time. (The same thing happened to the X-Men and Johnny Storm.) Peter stayed "college age" for a long time -- but suppose he hadn't. Suppose he'd continued to age as he had in the first couple of years. Would readers want to pick up the adventures of a 40 years old Spider-Man? 50? 60? Assume children are introduced, would all readers be comfortable with Pete Jr. becoming Spider-Man when he hit sixteen (roughly the age Peter had been)? Here we see the most basic problem with the whole concept: the same readers who demand "growth and change" are often the ones to squeal the loudest when that "growth and change" isn't of the kind they wanted. Sometime around the Seventies, publishers took a giant bad step, when they began pandering to the more vocal readers, instead of doing what they had been doing for decades and accepting that there would always be some readers who would complain. Ah, but those readers were rapidly becoming the people who PRODUCED the books. So, of course, the pandering. Professional comics were on their way to becoming the expensive fanzines they are today. And the industry was on its way to dying.
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Stephen Robinson Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5835
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Posted: 08 July 2013 at 11:43am | IP Logged | 5
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MANUEL: What about Dick Grayson? He became Nightwing, because he grew up. Everybody loves Nightwing.
SER: I think people love *Dick Grayson.* That's a difference. I recently downloaded and read the Teen Titans graphic novel GAMES. Nightwing only really works as a character if I think "grown-up Robin" or "former partner of Batman." On his own, he's a poor-man's Batman.
This is why I prefer the animated TITANS to the twentysomething Titans. The former are truly *teens* (Starfire is less MAXIM material in the comics, and Robin is COOL.)
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Paul Greer Byrne Robotics Security
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Joined: 18 August 2004 Posts: 14191
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Posted: 08 July 2013 at 11:45am | IP Logged | 6
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SER: I think people love *Dick Grayson.* That's a difference. **************** That's a Bingo!
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Stephen Robinson Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5835
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Posted: 08 July 2013 at 11:50am | IP Logged | 7
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JB: Let's take Peter Parker. He aged for the first few years of his book, but then Stan put the brakes on when he realized Marvel really was going to stick around for a while this time. (The same thing happened to the X-Men and Johnny Storm.) Peter stayed "college age" for a long time -- but suppose he hadn't. Suppose he'd continued to age as he had in the first couple of years. Would readers want to pick up the adventures of a 40 years old Spider-Man? 50? 60?
SER: I have been on a Romita Jr binge lately and recently bought some of his early 2000s AMAZING SPIDER-MAN run. Great art and storytelling (through the art) but JMS's Peter Parker is... a HIGH SCHOOL TEACHER.
How the hell did this happen? This isn't the same character anymore. The high school sophomore superhero and the high school science teacher superhero? Even Spider-Man's classic witty one-liners come across as sort of pathetic... the grown-up who never grew up.
I thought BUFFY worked best in high school, less so in college, not at all when Buffy is now working at the school. But the cast is filled with very mortal actors. They age. Superhero characters need never age.
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Andrew Bitner Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 01 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7512
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Posted: 08 July 2013 at 12:23pm | IP Logged | 8
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JB's comment above is definitive for me. teen characters should not age, categorically. as shown repeatedly, when they are "grown up" by a creator, it creates massive problems-- how can you age robin to adulthood practically overnight and not have a gigantic effect on kid flash, speedy, wonder girl, et al? how can you get peter parker out of high school and into college and not begin to lose the "put upon kid" aspect that made him relatable? no, kid characters should not age. there is no need for it to happen, no requirement, no force that demands they grow up. create "what if" stories if you please, wherein they imagine what it would be like when they're older, but do not make them older in reality. as DC has shown, that way lies madness.
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Brandon Frye Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 17 November 2004 Posts: 1319
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Posted: 08 July 2013 at 12:26pm | IP Logged | 9
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QUOTE:
I thought BUFFY worked best in high school, less so in college, not at all when Buffy is now working at the school. But the cast is filled with very mortal actors. They age. Superhero characters need never age. |
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It's a bit ironic isn't it? TV shows are faced with the hurdle of trying to preserve a demographic based on the age of the characters but are hindered by the unavoidable aging of the cast, while comic publishers who's characters can remain wonderfully ageless forever are doing everything they can to age them.
Personally, I enjoy a good aging tale in comics but only when it is limited to an Elseworlds or "What If" type of story.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132669
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Posted: 08 July 2013 at 12:37pm | IP Logged | 10
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The best test of this, of course, is to ask yourself "who" you would have met when you first started reading comics. If the characters had aged in real time since their creation, how many would still have been the originals? Not just the originals written badly, as we get today, but AT ALL.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132669
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Posted: 08 July 2013 at 12:41pm | IP Logged | 11
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I wouldn't have a problem with Marvel - it would put Johnny Storm, Peter Parker and the original X-Men in their early 20's - mainly because the comics industry is so continuity conscious and having Peter Parker go through 50 years of stories and still be 16 is a little problematic.•• More "problematic" that a quartet of astronauts getting bombarded by "cosmic rays" and turning into superheroes? More "problematic" than a scientist getting caught on the edge of a nuclear blast and turning into a raging green monster? More "problematic" than a high school kid getting bitten by a radioactive spider and developing the spider's abilities? "Problematic" is what we make it. Over think this stuff -- which is clearly what you're doing, and we end up with snarky remarks about "yellow Spandex". Play the game by the rules, or don't play at all.
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Anthony J Lombardi Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 12 January 2005 Location: United States Posts: 9410
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Posted: 08 July 2013 at 12:48pm | IP Logged | 12
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I think the decision to age characters period isn't one that can be made across the board. Case by case basis is how it should be handled. As well as story dictates. The story is the most important factor. My opinion is generally speaking comics should be timeless. Characters should stay the way they are as originally intended when they were created. If a character is meant to age and die than so be it. But if it isn't , they should stay as they were except for within the confines of a 'story that doesn't stop someone else from telling the stories of Dick grown up. Use what you want but at the end of the day back to status quo. Look at shows like the Simpsons. Bart a Lisa and Maggie have had multiple holidays come and go.Yet the characters are still kids. They've shown them in various episodes as adults. Yet no talk of multiple futures.
I don't mean to be insulting but it's only the anal retentive fanboy/pro that can't grasp that.
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