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Luke Styer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1515
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Posted: 12 June 2013 at 12:06pm | IP Logged | 1
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Its being a contentious issue is basically why the Court of Appeals kicked it back to the trial court -- so that a jury can make some kind of factual determination.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133324
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Posted: 12 June 2013 at 12:11pm | IP Logged | 2
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Ian't this a contentious issue. There are the stories about how much Gary Friedrich created the character and how much Roy Thomas and Mike Ploog contributed.•• In comics, as in most such media (like film and television) "created" is a VERY contentious word. The Image boys got into the habit of using "create" as an active verb, as if it was an ongoing process, for instance. But in reality, an actual CREATION is a finite act, and usually something very specific. Consider Jack Kirby's contention that he created Spider-Man. Yes -- A Spider-Man. But not THE Spider-Man. Not the one that saw print. I have joked about how I created Venom, using this as a good illustration of how the process most often works in comics. When I was working on IRON FIST, Chris Claremont had it in mind that the citizens of K'Un L'Un were space travelers, and with that in mind I one day suggested that Danny's costume, which was so often getting torn up and seen to be fine again not long after, was made from an organic space suit material, which actually HEALED rather than needing to be repaired. Chris and I did not get around to using that bit, but years later Roger Stern, remembering my having told him about it, asked me if he could use it for Spider-Man's alien costume. I said sure. The costume became a symbiote, into which Todd McFarlane stuck a big mouth with fangs and a sloppy tongue. See? I created Venom!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133324
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Posted: 12 June 2013 at 12:13pm | IP Logged | 3
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Much like the use of "Puck" as a name, the term "Ghost Rider" pre-dates Marvel's usage of it. A counter argument could be that the character references the common use term rather than his Marvel Comics western forebear.Does this make it a hu-uge coinidink then that two unrelated Ghost Riders wound up at Marvel? Not if Marvel bought Friedrich's with the idea of tying the two together at some point. Not that I can say for certain either way, or care to take sides, but the argument can be made. •• If Freidrich could absolutely prove he had no knowledge whatsoever of the previous Ghost Rider, and walked into Marvel one day with a new character he had created from the whole cloth, he might have a case. But aside from that being impossible to prove, I would find it impossible to believe!
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Jason Czeskleba Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004 Posts: 4620
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Posted: 12 June 2013 at 6:22pm | IP Logged | 4
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JB wrote:
But aside from that being impossible to prove, I would find it impossible to believe! |
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Especially considering the fact that Friedrich wrote all seven issues of the western Ghost Rider's series in 1967.
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Joe Hollon Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 13699
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Posted: 12 June 2013 at 6:27pm | IP Logged | 5
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Especially considering the fact that Friedrich wrote all seven issues of the western Ghost Rider's series in 1967.
********
Wow, really? Didn't know that. Game, set and match right there!
Although....Neil Gaiman somehow owns the rights to "Midieval Spawn" doesn't he?
Edited by Joe Hollon on 12 June 2013 at 6:29pm
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David Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 3093
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Posted: 12 June 2013 at 8:39pm | IP Logged | 6
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Joe: the opposite in fact. McFarlane kept the rights to Medieval Spawn, although he owes McFarlane royalties. http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=45934
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Jason Czeskleba Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004 Posts: 4620
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Posted: 12 June 2013 at 8:58pm | IP Logged | 7
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I imagine Friedrich's argument is that his version of the character is more than just an updating of the previous character. The original Ghost Rider was just a guy who dressed as a ghost and fought crime in the old west. The modern Ghost Rider is a guy who sells his soul to the devil and winds up gaining supernatural powers, and who literally changes into a skeletal form. Aside from the shared name, there isn't really much similarity between them in origin, abilities, or appearance. It isn't the same as arguing that silver-age Flash is a different character than golden-age Flash.
Not that that really matters much, given the WFH issues and shared creation issues that will make this pretty impossible for Friedrich to win.
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Matt Hawes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 16502
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Posted: 12 June 2013 at 8:59pm | IP Logged | 8
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The Ghost Rider cowboy character dates further back than Marvel's 1967 series:
And here you can read his first appearance online:
Magazine Enterprises GHOST RIDER!
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Ed Love Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 October 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2712
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Posted: 12 June 2013 at 9:00pm | IP Logged | 9
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Have to keep in mind that there's a difference between copyrights and trademarks. Cannot copyright a name. When talking about the rights to the character, the name is almost incidental, it's more about the rights to the story the characters appeared in and who has the rights to do stories with that.
The Johnny Blaze Ghost Rider is significantly different. He's really supernatural and super-powered where the Western hero only pretended to be and used tricks. The tone between the two are very different as well. A Western character is not going to have the same counter-culture appeal that a motorcycle riding hero is (especially at the time of publication).
Plus the Western Ghost Rider is a duplicate in name, tone and look of another company's character that is public domain, which would make it difficult to enforce Marvel's rights to derivative characters as their own character is derivative.
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Matt Hawes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 16502
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Posted: 12 June 2013 at 9:04pm | IP Logged | 10
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Marvel's original Ghost Rider was basically taking the Magazine Enterprises character and retooling it. Ray Krank and Dick Ayers created the character at ME. Roy Thomas, Gary Friedrich and Dick Ayers worked on the 1967 version at Marvel. It seems Dick Ayers is the fellow who had a hand in creating both versions of the character at both companies.
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Matt Hawes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 16502
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Posted: 12 June 2013 at 9:05pm | IP Logged | 11
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Oh, and what Ed wrote. ;-)
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Aaron Smith Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 10461
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Posted: 12 June 2013 at 9:16pm | IP Logged | 12
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And here you can read his first appearance online:
***
Thanks for posting that, Matt. It's fun to see stuff like that occasionally. I always mean to read more of the old comics that are available online, but never seem to think about it when I have the time.
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