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Sam Karns
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7624
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| Posted: 28 May 2013 at 8:29pm | IP Logged | 1
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I honestly don't think it would have made much of a difference. The biggest problem the industry has is a dearth of "cool new ideas" that have wide mainstream appeal since the 90s implosion. *** Writers and artist today can't get the "Death of Phoenix" out of their minds nor the development of Wolverine. They want to be like John Byrne so badly, or get the kind of credit Byrne received. In the late eighties, they were a few artists who could write and draw comics as well as Byrne and Mike Grell, but in the nineties more artists were gearing for two jobs with terrible results like Todd McFarlane.
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Jason Stephens
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 August 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 225
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| Posted: 28 May 2013 at 11:04pm | IP Logged | 2
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I really liked Wolverine as a kid reading X-men way back in the mid-80's but I think he had a negative impact on me as a person. I think Wolverine, more so than any other of the superheros, demonstrated that extreme violence was ok, justified and even encouraged. Even though much of the dialogue was counter to this in many cases I think an 11 year old picks up more on what they see than what they read. This was tempered somewhat by his acceptance of bushido later on, but overall I think a character like this may have been better off out of the mainstream titles.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133266
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| Posted: 29 May 2013 at 4:55am | IP Logged | 3
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If there is one sure thing in American superhero comics, it is that any element that makes a character "special" will almost certainly be run into the ground. Wolverine, barely under control and dangerous, becomes Wolverine, out of control and, well, boring. A rubber stamp character. "He's Wolverine, and he does THIS. And the MORE he does it, the better!"
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Robert White
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4560
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| Posted: 29 May 2013 at 5:28am | IP Logged | 4
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What's amusing is that Marvel has apparently flipped the script, so to speak. Now Cyclops is the "badass rebel" and Wolverine is the one staying home teaching the kids
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 29 May 2013 at 6:15am | IP Logged | 5
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"What's amusing is that Marvel has apparently flipped the script, so to speak."
==================
I would go even further and say that Marvel has broken Wolverine as a character. In the current Age of Ultron miniseries Wolverine travels back in time to kill Henry Pym, to prevent the creation of Ultron. This is an act of cold-blooded, premeditated murder. An assassination of an innocent man. I can't reconcile this with any version of Wolverine we've seen in the past. And the awful thing is that it seems the current readers of Marvel have accepted this with no complaints. Not a whisper.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133266
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| Posted: 29 May 2013 at 6:25am | IP Logged | 6
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I would go even further and say that Marvel has broken Wolverine as a character. In the current Age of Ultron miniseries Wolverine travels back in time to kill Henry Pym, to prevent the creation of Ultron. This is an act of cold-blooded, premeditated murder. An assassination of an innocent man. I can't reconcile this with any version of Wolverine we've seen in the past. And the awful thing is that it seems the current readers of Marvel have accepted this with no complaints. Not a whisper. •• Well, no big deal, right? Killing Pym would prevent the creation of Ulton, and have NO OTHER EFFECTS WHATSOEVER. No ripples to worry about.
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 29 May 2013 at 6:32am | IP Logged | 7
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Well, actually the rest of the series goes on to show how the Marvel timeline got screwed up by Wolverine's killing of Pym. Sorry I didn't mention that.
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Armindo Macieira
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 October 2006
Location: Portugal
Posts: 955
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| Posted: 29 May 2013 at 6:33am | IP Logged | 8
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Just to add that Susan Richards accepted that killing Pym might be the only way to save the present. This says a lot about the current Marvel and how they're dealing with their characters, but that's another story...
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 29 May 2013 at 6:35am | IP Logged | 9
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Well, actually the rest of the series goes on to show how the Marvel timeline got screwed up by Wolverine's killing of Pym. Sorry I didn't mention that. •• Well, that would have HELPED, yes.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 29 May 2013 at 6:39am | IP Logged | 10
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Just to add that Susan Richards accepted that killing Pym might be the only way to save the present. This says a lot about the current Marvel and how they're dealing with their characters, but that's another story...•• Since the Death of Phoenix, death is the default setting, the Master Key for lazy writers. Want to stir up the sh*t? Kill someone.* Traveling back thru time to tell Pym that Ultron is a bad idea is simply not acceptable anymore. Too "lame". "Heroes" have to be kickass, just like the writers and readers would be -- you know, if they were. Thing is, if they really wanted to do a "repercussions" story, they still could. Simply CONVINCE Pym not to build Ultron, and the Vision disappears. THAT would make some ripples! _________ * Once again this comes back to people forgetting -- if, indeed, they ever knew -- that the death of Phoenix was not planned. It was essentially forced upon Chris and me by circumstance, and looking back, we should have found another way. But we could not know, then, what a Pandora's Box we were opening.
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Greg Woronchak
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 September 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 1631
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| Posted: 29 May 2013 at 7:18am | IP Logged | 11
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In the current Age of Ultron miniseries Wolverine travels back in time to kill Henry Pym, to prevent the creation of Ultron.
Ugh. I sure have saved money by not buying new comics for years <g>. And haven't missed anything.
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Erin Anna Leach
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 February 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 746
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| Posted: 29 May 2013 at 9:07am | IP Logged | 12
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I don't think there not being a Wolverine character as we know him today, would have prevented the implosion of the industry in the 90's. Yes I do agree that the creators at the time had a hand in that happening. I was an assistant inker at the time, and I had seat to watch it all happen. However, the implosion also happened because of specualtive buying and massive over printing at a time when paper and ink costs were on the rise. The powers that were at the time were looking for any way to sensationalize their characters to promote a buying frenzy. As for the dark and gritty model for characters, I think it would have went that way no matter what. Frank Miller had already taken Daredevil and Batman down that road, and then there is the Punisher Limited series. There for a time the Punisher was gaining a lot of popularity, and may have even rivaled Wolverine for the top slot. If it hadn't been Wolverine put into that mold, it would have been another character like Punisher for instance. They may have even chose Wolverine to do this to, just a bit later in time. I agree that you did indeed bring the character into the lime light John. However, Chris made so many other changes to the character after you left. I really don't think he was the same character even 20 issues after you left X-Men.
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Topic Closed)
