Matt Hawes wrote: Whether or not the industry would be in a better or worse state had things been different, I can't really say. I do think things would be very different in some way, though.

I think that if Wolverine hadn't stepped up to the "darker hero" role, someone else would have before too much longer.  Maybe someone who wasn't created in the real world because there was no need.  I think the "kewl 90s" characters would have appeared as they did anyway, just with a different character serving as the vanguard.  It's just too logical of a development (albeit an unfortunate one) to not happen.

JB wrote: When Stan, Jack, Steve and the others created the "Marvel Age", they did so by defining a broad template -- "Here is the face of the future. This is what comics are going to be now!" Wolverine defined a very NARROW template.

This obviously oversimplies the history quite a bit (esp. the late 30s Pulp influenced periods before characters settled down into their more family friendly versions), but here's where I see the overall trends:

40s - heroic people doing heroic things

60s (Stan/Jack) - superheroes are people, too.  They make mistakes, lose their girlfriends, don't always win, occasionally have trouble getting along, etc.

80s - taking "complexity" and bumping it up a notch.  As part of that, you have characters like Wolverine who use some fairly reprehensible means for noble ends.   

00s - going insular.  Random retcons, shock value twists, inconsistent characterization, overmilking franchises, poor coordination between series (even those featuring the same characters), etc.  But that has nothing to do with all the characters going grim or anything. 

Companies don't want to take risks on new stuff or come up with "creator-friendly" deals on new properties and creators don't want to give up their toys to the big companies, so everyone just plays with the same toys over and over again.  Meanwhile, companies ignore the fact that the market only tends to sustain 25-30 monthlies per company and instead pump out 75-100 new books a month. 

And all of that has nothing to do with Wolverine.  I'd be happier with the current Avengers line-up if he wasn't on it, but I don't the industry would be in a better place.  I think there would still be an over-reliance on old ideas to keep the market going no matter which ideas they were.

Industry-wise, comics were still going direct-market and newstand sales were eventually going to freefall as all magazines have been doing. So, Wolverine or no, comic sales would still not be any healthier overall, I think.

As for the creative side of things, Wolverine was the kid on the playground everyone wanted to play with and be like. Had Wolverine not made killing your foes "okay," would Miller's Daredevil have still been as violent and bloodthirsty? Maybe, maybe not. But without a Wolverine mini-series behind him, would Miller have been as marketable and highly sought after by DC? Would he have been given the creative latitude to do Ronin, and then Dark Knight? Without Dark Knight, do edgy, creator-driven Industry-Darling concepts like Watchmen and Sandman come about? Do they just happen later?

If Wolverine isn't there to propel the X-Men onto the cover of every fan publication and eventually, the top of the sales charts, do Marvel's sales remain as strong in this new continuity? Do the X-Men usher in a new age of Mutant Sales Supremacy, or does the book simply hover just above cancellation? If the X-Men aren't king of the sales hill, is their influence over the rest of the Marvel Universe diminished? Do Mutant Rights and the associated Governmental entanglements become narrower non-issues? Who does rise to the top and do they rise as far? If the X-Men aren't on top, does DC still try to copy their success with the New Teen Titans?

What about the Boys of Image? Without Wolverine and the Marvel Killers as their guiding lights, who do they enter the industry to celebrate and mimic?

Without Wolverine, the sympathetic killer, do characters with similar ethics still rise to prominence? If Wolverine allowed heroes to kill, does Miller still get to do Spider-Man Annual #15 with the Punisher as a near-good-guy? Does the resulting Mike Zeck Punisher mini-series happen? Does anybody ever bring back Ghost Rider, the third leg of that gatling-gun-like tripod? What would the Nineties be like if the sales leaders aren't all machine-gun toting, ammo-sash wearing madmen killing for Christ and everything good and decent in this sad old world of ours'?

I'd be onboard with this if only to make Venom and Guy Gardner never-was...

Character-wise, Wolverine would still be a former X-Man. That would carry a certain cache in the Marvel Universe, regardless of whether he were currently on the team or not. The Defenders is where all lost, little X-Men eventually went to die under the pen of J.M. DeMatteis. Wolverine would have been directly up his alley as we saw with Manslaughter, Foolkiller*, and other warped, twisted killers DeMatteis has written. Not popular like Elektra or the Punisher. Just twisted sickos, ala' DeMatteis.

Had he gone this route, Wolverine himself would likely be a slavering, giggling happy-murder type, possibly with a mad-on for the team that threw him out.

He'd be young or at least young-ish. The aged, world-weary Wolverine who fought along Cap, Nick Fury, and the Black Widow (?) in World War II came later. There'd have been no ties to Japan or striving for Samurai-like calm and internal poetry. No Mariko. The claws were shown as part of his body prior to that phone call, and Cockrum had established his appearance under the mask, so he wouldn't be Len Wein's original 19-year old with the trick gloves. He'd be recognizable, yet comparatively inchaote. He could conceivably turn up somewhere as one of the High Evolutionary's New Men, given that hints were dropped in that direction.

He could set himself up as the leader of an evil mutant gang, I suppose, maybe kill another former X-Man (Bobby maybe...) and be hunted by the X-Men in a storyline without end... Or be just one more Marvel Solo Star turning up in serialized Marvel Comics Presents adventures like Rawhide Kid or Deathlok... I could see Chaykin getting his hands on him at some point.

* Not originally DeMatteis' creation, I know.

Interesting timing of your post, JB, as not only does the new Entertainment Weekly feature Hugh Jackman's Wolverine on the cover, but they also feature the following blurb in the same issue, under their article "The 25 Greatest Superheroes Ever":

#8 X-Men (Claremont and Byrne):

"Writer Chris Claremont and co-writer/artist John Byrne's beloved 1977-81 run with Marvel's mutant superteam showcased an ad hoc dysfunctional family whose occasional infighting was as dramatic as any high-stakes battle--and propelled Wolverine into the ranks of comicdom's surliest good guys."

Then, down at #16 is Wolverine (Hugh Jackman).  Eep!

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You're transplanting a bit there, Matt. The "berserker rages" came after I left the book, as Chris' response to Shooter one day deciding Wolverine could not be a "homicidal maniac" any more. The forgotten memories also came after my time, when Wolverine didn't talk about his past because he didn't WANT to.