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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 10 May 2013 at 1:16am | IP Logged | 1
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Downloads for 3D-printed Liberator gun reach 100,000
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Glen Keith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 July 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 851
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| Posted: 10 May 2013 at 11:52am | IP Logged | 2
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Actually, Koroush, the question one would have to ask is would the rates of gun violence have gone down in those other countries even if they hadn't instituted new gun laws? As you pointed out, there is no consensus on the why.
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Ian David
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 June 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 47
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| Posted: 10 May 2013 at 5:52pm | IP Logged | 3
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The report in the link posted by Peter Martin says "both parents may face charges for leaving the rifle unsecured." This suggests an expectation the guns should have been locked away. I'm reading that as an expectation of some restriction on gun ownership already in place.
Here in the UK guns are expected to be locked away and licensing is conditional to periodic (5 year?) police checks on gun security.
Interested to know what the law is in the US. Can someone clarify for what the law says in the US about how guns should be secured?
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Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1681
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| Posted: 10 May 2013 at 5:55pm | IP Logged | 4
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Glen Keith wrote:
| Actually, Koroush, the question one would have to ask is would the rates of gun violence have gone down in those other countries even if they hadn't instituted new gun laws? As you pointed out, there is no consensus on the why. |
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As I said, in Australia, we had one mass shooting a year on average prior to the ban, and none after. The analytical article that notes this phenomenon says that statistically, the odds of this being coincidence are 1 in 100. So there is a direct causal link.
Also, intuitively, removing deadly weapons from the community results in less crime committed with those deadly weapons. I'm fairly sure we don't need a multi-million dollar study to come up with that conclusion, when simple logic will do.
The real question stands: what is the "right to bear arms" worth, in terms of lost lives, to Americans. It's your call as a nation, but I would suggest that this grossly misinterpreted "right" needs to be clarified in the Constitution. For one thing, the founding fathers never foresaw people creating guns using 3D printers in their own homes!
Edited by Koroush Ghazi on 10 May 2013 at 5:56pm
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Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5819
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| Posted: 11 May 2013 at 12:06am | IP Logged | 5
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The real question stands: what is the "right to bear arms" worth, in terms of lost lives, to Americans. It's your call as a nation, but I would suggest that this grossly misinterpreted "right" needs to be clarified in the Constitution.
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Which means my earlier question still stands - since America is now creating 3D printer guns and putting them online for people in other countries to download and print, what will the response of the rest of the world be when someone in Germany, Canada, Japan, England, etc prints an American 3D gun and kills someone or commits suicide?
It used to be easy to say it was an American problem - now they're deliberately exporting that problem elsewhere. What should the response be?
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Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1681
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| Posted: 11 May 2013 at 1:28am | IP Logged | 6
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Fair point. I suppose other countries could treat anyone actively promoting the distribution of weapons as illegal arms dealers, and take them to an international court?
The first person that should be targeted is this "self-proclaimed crypto-anarchist", the cretinous Cody Wilson character who is (or rather was, until recently) smugly distributing weapon schematics.
Hold him legally accountable as an accessory for any illegal deaths caused by guns made from his schematics.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133579
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| Posted: 11 May 2013 at 7:22am | IP Logged | 7
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The report in the link posted by Peter Martin says "both parents may face charges for leaving the rifle unsecured." This suggests an expectation the guns should have been locked away. I'm reading that as an expectation of some restriction on gun ownership already in place. •• I often note that what the Founding Fathers would probably consider pretty severe restrictions have already been placed upon the "right to bear arms". When the Second Amendment was drafted, there was no consideration whatsoever of licenses, background checks, waiting periods, etc. I actually find myself sometimes dreading the day the NRA decides to start demanding a LITERAL reading of the Amendment, and those additional restrictions will get wiped off the books by the worms in our Government. "Licenses are not mentioned in the Second Amendment! They are therefore unConstitutional!"
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 11 May 2013 at 7:24am | IP Logged | 8
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The first person that should be targeted is this "self-proclaimed crypto-anarchist", the cretinous Cody Wilson character who is (or rather was, until recently) smugly distributing weapon schematics.Hold him legally accountable as an accessory for any illegal deaths caused by guns made from his schematics. •• There are some seriously slippery slopes being created by this latest lunacy. It is my understanding Congress passed legislation protecting gun manufacturers from legal action brought on by the use of their product. Would this apply to Wilson? And, even worse, could it be extrapolated to include those who use his plans to build guns? Are they not, by definition, an extension of the manufacturing process?
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Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1681
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| Posted: 11 May 2013 at 8:02am | IP Logged | 9
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Reading this article, it seems that the Pentagon took down his schematics precisely because they potentially broke laws pertaining to the export of weapons. However, given the weasel is a law student, he says he deliberately set up his website to get around such regulations.
In this article, Wilson goes on to proudly announce that:
QUOTE:
| I think we should be allowed to own automatic weapons; we should have the right to own all the terrible implements of war, as [American political philosopher] Tench Coxe said, and I think this principle probably applies globally. |
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So it's not enough that the gun madness is engulfing the US; now it's being exported to other countries too.
I do have some faith in the US Government though, because whether Democrat or Republican, the one thing that no politician in the US will tolerate is having their power usurped. The fact that the Pentagon stepped in to remove the 3D printer gun plans so quickly indicates that for once government can be counted on to do its job.
On a side note, I absolutely loathe Anarchists like this Wilson guy. It's become a very fashionable thing for young Internet-savvy people to proclaim themselves anarchists, when what they really mean is that they are mindless self-centered anti-authoritarians. Government was created for a reason: it's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that when left to their own devices, people cannot and will not sensibly govern their own actions in a responsible and accountable manner. Wilson's childish actions elegantly prove that point.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 11 May 2013 at 8:07am | IP Logged | 10
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I do have some faith in the US Government though, because whether Democrat or Republican, the one thing that no politician in the US will tolerate is having their power usurped.•• Usurped? Perhaps not. But they seem quite content to sell it to the nearest Lobbyist.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 11 May 2013 at 8:11am | IP Logged | 11
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Are parents ever charged and convicted?•• Hard to make a decent call on that one. Parents are responsible for the upbringing of their children, but they do not have absolute control over those children. Kids are still primarily independent entities, and can sometimes go wrong despite the best efforts of their parents. A parallel, perhaps: if I own a gun, and take all the proper precautions in storing it, should I be held responsible if that gun is somehow stolen and used in a robbery or homicide?
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Craig Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 November 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 1756
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| Posted: 11 May 2013 at 8:24am | IP Logged | 12
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An interesting question. If the gun owner procured the gun legally and taken reasonable measures to store it but it was stolen and used in a crime nonetheless, I'd say that owner is not legally liable. Morally responsible, maybe. If the gun were procured illegally, I'd say yes, the owner would be legally liable because they shouldn't have had it in the first place. I'm kind of grappling with this issue right now. I was an armed uniformed security officer at a medical facility for 10 years. I own a firearm (that I was trained to use) that I keep locked up and unloaded in a safe. I haven't taken it out of my home loaded in nearly 5 years (my last day on the job). I've been learning guitar with my son for the last year or so and I would like to sell the firearm and buy a nice Strat guitar. I am likely to sell it to a gun dealer, so it will be a legal sale to a legal dealer. But it bothers me to wonder what will happen to it afterward. I have no real assurance the safeguards the dealer will take in re-selling it. Is it safer broken down into pieces in my locker than it is in a gun shop?
Edited by Craig Robinson on 11 May 2013 at 8:25am
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Topic Closed)
