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Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5819
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| Posted: 07 May 2013 at 2:14pm | IP Logged | 1
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It occurs to me that this 3D printed gun business isn't just a "oh, you silly Second Amendment you" issue; I'm in Canada. My neighbour could print that gun out and kill me, or himself, or his wife.
Could this be a turning point in how the world looks at Americans and their guns? As in, it's no longer just an American problem - now those idiots in Texas are exporting it to homicidal, suicidal, and extremist people in Britain, Japan, Canada, etc and expecting other countries to deal with the kind of lunacy and pervasive gun culture of the States.
So what happens when Otto Schmidt in Germany prints out one of these guns, and uses it to kill his girlfriend? What happens when Ioan Rhys Jones of Wales prints one and kills himself because he's gay and getting made fun of at school? Who do the authorities in those countries go after for providing the guns illegally to their citizens?
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Glen Keith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 July 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 851
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| Posted: 07 May 2013 at 4:37pm | IP Logged | 2
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I think you guys are misinterpreting me. I am not advocating anarchy, or claiming the complete ineffectiveness of laws. What I am saying is that laws in and of themselves will not prevent people from doing bad things. Laws and law enforcers are great at punishing people after they commit crimes, but are middling at prevention. If guns are hard to get, the determined criminal will make bombs, or use bladed weapons (in the right hands, a sword can cause as much death as a gun), or even resort to bows.
Perhaps this article by Eliyahu Federman will clear up my position.
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Lance Hill
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2005
Posts: 991
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| Posted: 07 May 2013 at 5:21pm | IP Logged | 3
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QUOTE:
| The printer gun story is indicative of why, from a pragmatic view, I don't see the effectiveness of most gun laws. |
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They were pretty damn effective in Australia.
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Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 16000
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| Posted: 07 May 2013 at 6:31pm | IP Logged | 4
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in the right hands, a sword can cause as much death as a gun--------------------------------------- Not from 50 feet it can't.
In the Huffington Post article's question about are gun control laws effective, look at Japan's murder rate with guns, look at the UK's.
In 2011, 15 times more people were killed by firearms in the US (population 313m) than the total number of murders in the UK (population 62m, i.e. around one fifth of the US). Cut back on the firearms and you might get your murder rate down to boot.
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Shaun Barry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 December 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6934
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| Posted: 07 May 2013 at 7:26pm | IP Logged | 5
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Yes, because the U.S. has such a high rate of death by swords. When was the last mass killing done by one individual with a fucking sword? C'mon, Glen.
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Glen Keith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 July 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 851
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| Posted: 07 May 2013 at 7:57pm | IP Logged | 6
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Japan has a much more efficient criminal justice system, one that has an 80 or 90 % conviction rate. It's people do not enjoy the rights that are taken for granted in the US, for instance they have almost no right to privacy, and their criminals have few rights one taken into custody. The police use aggressive tactics to get confessions that even the most hard right conservative in the US would probably classify as torture. I doubt most people in the US would feel comfortable relinquishing those rights for more security.
England has always had a lower crime rate than the US. However, in the last 10 years, both countries have been seeing a reduction in the rates of crime. The US crime rate has been steadily falling since the 90's, with a few mild spikes, but nothing approaching the highs of the 60's. England did actually see a rise in crime for the decade after it's gun ban, but it has recently fallen off. It has been suggested that this is due just as much, if not more so, due to aggressive policing. The conviction rates in London are substantially higher than in New York, for instance. A funny joke I've heard was that the 90's crime rates in England were used to show the efficacy of their gun ban simply because they were lower than the US, even though they were on the rise, was like someone gaining weight on a diet and saying, "well, I'm still not as fat as Chris Christie."
In 2005 The New South Wales Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research concluded that they had no evidence that their gun laws had no effect one way or another. Others have claimed otherwise, but in my experience, when two sides of an emotional issue both present "evidence" that comes to wildly different conclusions, usually neither side is right.
Another country that tried to reduce gun violence by registration was New Zealand, and they repealed that 1983, deeming it to be too expensive and not particularly useful.
I want to state here that I'm just looking for truth here. I really have no side in the gun debate. I'm not afraid of guns, nor am I a gun nut. The only firearms I have ever owned were made by Nerf and Daisy. I am not likely to ever purchase a firearm in the future. And despite living in one of the murder capitols of the US for 10 years, I never witnessed any gun crimes (an assault or two, and a possible drug deal), nor ever saw anyone holding a gun, and that despite occasionally working in run down, poverty stricken areas of the city.
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Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 16000
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| Posted: 07 May 2013 at 8:19pm | IP Logged | 7
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And despite living in one of the murder capitols of the US for 10 years, I never witnessed any gun crimes (an assault or two, and a possible drug deal), nor ever saw anyone holding a gun, and that despite occasionally working in run down, poverty stricken areas of the city. ------------------------------------------------------------ -----
What is the relevance of this? Anecdotal evidence? And you have murder buildings?
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Randy Lahey
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 January 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 675
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| Posted: 07 May 2013 at 8:40pm | IP Logged | 8
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"It occurs to me that this 3D printed gun business isn't just a "oh, you silly Second Amendment you" issue; I'm in Canada. My neighbour could print that gun out and kill me, or himself, or his wife. "
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Brad, guns are legal in Canada. It would be easier and cheaper, for your neighbour to legally buy a gun, then to obtain a 3D printer (very expensive), and then start making weapons. What would be the point when he could just go to a gun store?
Also, gun ownership in Canada is about 1/3 of the USA (per 100 people), so that is still high in my book, maybe your neighbour already owns a gun.
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Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5819
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| Posted: 07 May 2013 at 8:53pm | IP Logged | 9
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Brad, guns are legal in Canada. It would be easier and cheaper, for your neighbour to legally buy a gun, then to obtain a 3D printer (very expensive), and then start making weapons. What would be the point when he could just go to a gun store?
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28 day waiting period? Mandatory training course for handgun owners? Multiple background checks? Safety exam? Transportation license to get it from the store home, and from home to a shooting range legally?
Yeah, that's SO MUCH EASIER than hitting PRINT.
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Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5819
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| Posted: 07 May 2013 at 8:58pm | IP Logged | 10
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Also, hitting PRINT can be done by criminals who wouldn't qualify for a handgun license, children who wouldn't qualify for a handgun license, mentally ill people who wouldn't qualify for a handgun license.
Shit, Randy - saying "What would be the point when he could just go to a gun store?" is probably about the silliest counter argument you could make.
I could walk to a gun store, and jump through all the loopholes to get a gun, because I've got a clean record. The people that this 3D gun printer most benefits are the people that wouldn't have access otherwise, but that now do. I could use the adage "it's like printing your own money" but it's literally "printing your own gun" so there's no need for a simile.
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Rick Shepherd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 June 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: 07 May 2013 at 9:53pm | IP Logged | 11
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Glen Keith: England did actually see a rise in crime for the decade after it's gun ban, but it has recently fallen off. It has been suggested that this is due just as much, if not more so, due to aggressive policing. The conviction rates in London are substantially higher than in New York, for instance.
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Lived in London for nearly 7 years, and have been working regularly in Central London for over a decade. Aside from the fact that higher conviction rates and more 'aggressive' policing don't automatically go hand in hand (for example, the one area where conviction rates are still alarmingly low in the UK is rape - not because of 'less aggressive' policing, but simply because sadly, only a fraction of victims report the crime to the police), what you describe (from second-hand anecdotal evidence, I presume - ?) just doesn't tally with what I've experienced on a daily basis, or seen/heard on the news for most of my life...
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Jodi Moisan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6832
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| Posted: 07 May 2013 at 10:31pm | IP Logged | 12
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Gotta love Stewart!
Edited by Jodi Moisan on 07 May 2013 at 10:35pm
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Topic Closed)
