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Armindo Macieira Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 October 2006 Location: Portugal Posts: 955
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Posted: 28 April 2013 at 2:34pm | IP Logged | 1
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This is why I'd LOVE to travel back in time to the Triassic, Jurassic and Cretaceous just to take a good look at all those dinosaurs we "know" so well. All in all we have no idea exactly how they looked like... how much flesh, colours, feathers and other ornaments not to mention their behaviour.
A couple of months travelling from the Cambrian to the last ice age would be the perfect vacation for me!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133771
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Posted: 28 April 2013 at 4:01pm | IP Logged | 2
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Art Adams, Bill Stout and I had an interesting -- and unfortunately brief -- conversation many years ago about what dinosaurs might have looked like. I was already strongly advocating the "more meat" approach to reconstruction, and Arthur took it a step further when he noted there was no current way to know if dinosaurs had external ears, like dogs and humans. I was already carrying in my head an image of the T-Rex that looked a lot more like a hippo than the traditional dragon. Suddenly I found my mind's eye confronted with one that looked like a beagle!
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12806
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Posted: 28 April 2013 at 4:55pm | IP Logged | 3
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My five year old recently got very into dinosaurs (not coincidentally after his first trip to the American Museum of Natural History) and he's already firing away with questions. Why did Tyrannosaurs have such small arms, what good were they for? If some dinosaurs used tails for balance when walking, why did Brachiosaurs and Apatosaurs need them when they had such big wide feet, and four of them also? Why do people make the same dinosaurs with feathers sometimes and other times without? Et cetera!
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Terry Thielen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 May 2012 Location: United States Posts: 480
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Posted: 28 April 2013 at 6:13pm | IP Logged | 4
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William Stout has come around a lot since he did his book "The Dinosaurs" which was born in a time where shrink-wrapped dinosaurs were coming into favor as a backlash to all the years of tail-dragging fatties. from "The Dinosaurs" 1981
and from 2008
well... maybe not the heads so much, but he has fleshed out his bodies considerably.
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Noah Smith Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1217
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Posted: 28 April 2013 at 6:22pm | IP Logged | 5
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Hippos are adorable, to be certain, but I believe they kill more people every year than any other animal. To quote comedian Mike Birbiglia, "I didn't even know hippos ate humans. I just thought they ate those little white marbles. I thought that was the point of 'Hungry Hungry Hippos', that hippos are marblevores."
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Carmen Bernardo Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 August 2006 Location: United States Posts: 3666
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Posted: 28 April 2013 at 6:26pm | IP Logged | 6
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Looking at that hippo skull reminds me of what people who've been in contact with them have had to deal with. They're actually quite aggressive. Victims have had their arms ripped out of their sockets by them. Of particular note for me is the mythology of ancient Egypt. Set is described as having a hippopotamus's face. His signal act was to dismember his brother Horus after killing him (mama Isis made him better). Pretty much what an enraged hippo does, so you could guess why the Egyptians used that beast as the death god's totem. I do wonder about the dinosaurs, though. This shrink-wrapped lizard face is quite persistent. I recall seeing a picture of a triceratops with its frill hidden behind a mass of muscles that made it look more like a pig than the familiar form we've been given. Kind of freaky.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133771
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Posted: 28 April 2013 at 7:06pm | IP Logged | 7
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"Type casting" has a lot to do with how we portray other animals. Hippos are kinda cute looking, so we imagine them to be docile. Like the way we basically swap the personalities of chimps and gorillas. And, of course, when the first dinosaur fossils were found people cast them as lizards and dragons, and it took centuries to even begin to shake that image.
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Jodi Moisan Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008 Location: United States Posts: 6832
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Posted: 28 April 2013 at 7:26pm | IP Logged | 8
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I have also wandered about feathers, don't they say that dinosaurs were sort of related to birds. I think where I get the lizard vibe, is the fact alligators are still here and I see them as modern day dinosaurs.
In my mind a lot of them looked like this
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Thom Price Byrne Robotics Member
LHomme Diabolique
Joined: 29 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7593
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Posted: 28 April 2013 at 7:44pm | IP Logged | 9
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While I can accept the plausibility of dinosaurs having feathers, I don't think it will ever alter the image of them in my head. In my imagination, they will always look like the creatures in the original KING KONG; it's just too ingrained.
(Big time tangent: I'm in the same boat, so to speak, when it comes to Vikings. In my mind they will always have horned helmets. I know there is no historical evidence for this, and that it would have been wildly impractical to wear them in the close quarters of a ship -- they'd be poking each others' eyes out left and right. I tried watching some of the TV series VIKINGS and just couldn't get past their look. Vikings without horned helmets is like ... well, dinosaurs with feathers!)
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Terry Thielen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 May 2012 Location: United States Posts: 480
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Posted: 28 April 2013 at 8:07pm | IP Logged | 10
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one thing to remember is that dinosaurs are not mammals. It's easy for humans to look around at other mammals and start trying to attribute certain aspects onto dinosaurs.
Harder to disprove fleshy bits, like external ears, but with dinosaur relations with both birds and lizards helps to see why perhaps it's not very likely that dinosaurs would have external ears. ( here is a nice link about bird ears) The idea that Giraffatitan could have a trunk like an elephant was tossed out there by Robert Bakker in the 70s. There are reasons why this is very unlikely, but it caused people to try and look at dinosaurs differently. I am all for new views on dinosaurs, but hopefully the science will be there to support these ideas or disprove them.
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Terry Thielen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 May 2012 Location: United States Posts: 480
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Posted: 28 April 2013 at 8:09pm | IP Logged | 11
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"accept the plausibility of dinosaurs having feathers"
It's not just plausible, it's a fact.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133771
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Posted: 29 April 2013 at 5:05am | IP Logged | 12
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Given the great range in size and shape of the frill, the area behind it being filled in with muscle seems highly unlikely, if only because it would be a great impediment to free movement of the head.But further given their vegetarian diet, the frill serving as the mounting base for strong jaw muscles is not an extraordinary concept. As I have noted before, when this has come up, there are muscle attachment points on a human skull that correspond to those on most other animals, a placing the fingertips on the side of the head, above the ears, and clenching the teeth quickly demonstrates how high our own jaw muscles are attached. Needing an even greater mechanical advantage in order to deal with tough vegetation could easily have led to the development of the frill. (The black and white line drawing, seen above, does NOT reflect this configuration, of course. There we see a fairly conventional restoration with a "blob" of muscle in front of the frill that serves no apparent purpose.)
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