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Andy Ihnatko
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Posted: 20 April 2013 at 2:00pm | IP Logged | 1  


 QUOTE:
There are no logical hoops that need jumping thru, unless you want to build them for yourself.

When I was a kid, reading FF 5, I needed no more explanation of "how" Reed's power worked than to simply see him do it. Like I didn't need an explanation of how Johnny burst into flame without being totally consumed or sucking all the air out of a room. I didn't need anyone to explain to me how Sue could see, if her retinas were invisible. And, unlike at least one letter-writer, I did not need to be told where Ben's fourth finger went (or if he had a penis).

I refer to this as "The Explaining Disease." The corrosive compulsion of a writer to explain how something works when it couldn't be less relevant to the story, couldn't be of less interest to the reader, and when the only rational explanation is a tautology.

"How does Sue Storm see, when her retinas don't absorb light?"

"Because her retinas are able to function despite the fact that they don't absorb light."



Edited by Andy Ihnatko on 20 April 2013 at 2:04pm
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John Byrne
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Posted: 20 April 2013 at 4:34pm | IP Logged | 2  

Seems simple, doesn't it?

Yet, unfortunately, the ARE a lot of readers who really DO want to dot all the lower case Js. I recall a fan at MidOhioCon one year, who asked me what KIND of spider bit Peter Parker. He seemed most disappointed when I told him it didn't matter, since ALL North American spiders are venomous to some degree.

Marvel and DC have been equally guilty in encouraging this. Part of the steady march toward the books being wholly in the control of fans-turned-pro. (And, yes, I freely confess I have fallen victim to this kind of thinking from time to time -- tho happily not for quite a while.)

I've mentioned before one writer I know who used to be one of the best in the Biz, but who slid slowly and inexorably down that slope, until it seemed he actually could not write at all unless he was EXPLAINING something.

Comics are not alone in this, of course. I've watched STAR TREK stumble down the same path.

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Andy Ihnatko
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Posted: 20 April 2013 at 8:51pm | IP Logged | 3  

 John Byrne wrote:
I've mentioned before one writer I know who used to be one of the best in the Biz, but who slid slowly and inexorably down that slope, until it seemed he actually could not write at all unless he was EXPLAINING something.

Comics are not alone in this, of course. I've watched STAR TREK stumble down the same path.

Superpowers are almost always the Maguffin of any comic book story. Sue Storm would be the exact same character if you changed her superpower to "can phase through solid objects" but left everything else alone. But! If she had the same invisibility powers and suddenly couldn't care less about her family, she would no longer be "The Invisible Woman." 

A good story is never about the powers; it's about the person. And that's why it's a huge waste of time to try to peel the onion of why powers work, or how many Avengers a quinjet can carry.

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Shaun Barry
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Posted: 20 April 2013 at 9:31pm | IP Logged | 4  

"A good story is never about the powers; it's about the person. And that's why it's a huge waste of time to try to peel the onion of why powers work, or how many Avengers a quinjet can carry."

Which is why, aside from the pretty pictures, the average issue of OFFICIAL HANDBOOK OF THE MARVEL UNIVERSE or WHO'S WHO bored me to tears as a kid.

 

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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 20 April 2013 at 9:50pm | IP Logged | 5  


 QUOTE:
Marvel and DC have been equally guilty in encouraging this. Part of the steady march toward the books being wholly in the control of fans-turned-pro. (And, yes, I freely confess I have fallen victim to this kind of thinking from time to time -- tho happily not for quite a while.)

I think it's important for writers to establish how things like superpowers would work for their own reference and for sake of consistency -- especially within the context of an ongoing shared narrative.  The trick is to never to let the readership see the man behind the curtain. 

I see The Official Handbook of the MU as the start of the decline.  It's a good idea in it's own right but it should have stayed internal to Marvel as a writer's bible.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 21 April 2013 at 4:47am | IP Logged | 6  

I think it's important for writers to establish how things like superpowers would work for their own reference and for sake of consistency -- especially within the context of an ongoing shared narrative. The trick is to never to let the readership see the man behind the curtain.

••

Defining powers should come down to what they CAN'T do, rather than HOW they do what they CAN do. Writer's should avoid the DOCTOR WHO standard trope of "This can never happen -- except this once."

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Kip Lewis
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Posted: 21 April 2013 at 6:09am | IP Logged | 7  

Which is why, aside from the pretty pictures, the average
issue of OFFICIAL HANDBOOK OF THE MARVEL UNIVERSE or
WHO'S WHO bored me to tears as a kid
---------------

Problem is you have two kinds of readers out there.
Readers like you who are bored with them. And those like
me, as a teen, I devoured them. (Even as a elementary
school kid I loved the tech manuals for sci-fi books.
One of the books I remember was nothing more than an
encyclopedia of alien races that was a stand alone book
not connected to any science fiction universe. I read it
for all its details). Funny thing is now as an adult,
they hold no interest for me. He is the thing, books
like that stirred my creativity as a kid.

The how-it-is-done mentality can go too far, I agree, but
it is also a source of storylines. For example saying
that Nightcrawler teleports by traveling through an
alternate reality, means a story where he gets trapped
there. But saying he teleports by transforming his
molecules into energy and beaming some place means a
story where he is trapped and can't remateralize. Just
leaving the explanation as "he teleports; it doesn't
matter how" means either conflicting stories or less
stories.

Again I agree it can go too far, where it kills
creativity. Or when the idea is just bad or weak, like
Cyclops taping an extra-dimensional source rather than
the original idea of a solar battery.So I would say it is
good when it inspires creativity in the readers, but bad
when it kills creativity.

Edited by Kip Lewis on 21 April 2013 at 6:12am
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Andy Ihnatko
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Posted: 21 April 2013 at 7:17am | IP Logged | 8  

 John Byrne wrote:
Defining powers should come down to what they CAN'T do, rather than HOW they do what they CAN do. Writer's should avoid the DOCTOR WHO standard trope of "This can never happen -- except this once."

Limitations create drama; "no limits" only contributes to adolescent-style fantasies (not without entertainment value, but definitely the weaker sauce). 

The FF is withering under brutal attack. They're only alive because the team is huddled inside one of Sue's force-domes, which is being lashed by devastating energy attacks.

Version "A": Sue's the only one who can strike instantly from a great distance. But creating a second projection will likely cause the dome's integrity to fail, and the dome is the only thing keeping everybody alive.

Version "B": A burst blood vessel behind Sue's eye tells Reed that the stress of maintaining the dome will soon kill her. He tries to convince Sue to shrink the dome to a tight bubble that only protects her; Ben, Johnny, and himself will try to survive long enough to exploit a window of vulnerability that Reed hopes will appear in a little over a minute. Sue's having none of it but clearly, Reed's right, and Sue's willingness to sacrifice herself for her family is clouding her judgment.

Version "C": From the safety of the force bubble, Sue Storm smirks, says something cool, and then knocks the foe out with a blunt blow with a second invisible projection. The scene ends with her standing over the vanquished foe as if she's posing for a Lara Croft movie poster.

Which version of the story is the least interesting? Which version of The Invisible Woman is the most heroic?



Edited by Andy Ihnatko on 21 April 2013 at 7:26am
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Aaron Smith
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Posted: 21 April 2013 at 7:18am | IP Logged | 9  

When I was a kid and discovered OHOTMU and WHO'S WHO, I loved them but really didn't pay much attention to the detailed specifics of how powers worked and exactly how strong characters were as represented by how much they could lift, etc. What I found most interesting about such reference books was the histories of the characters and also the tiny panels depicting scenes from older comics which I then assumed I'd never have a chance to read (although I have now thanks to reprints and years of back issue hunting). I think it was in OHOTMU that I got my first glimpse of the X-Men as drawn by JB, in panels that I later learned were from the Dark Phoenix storyline. 
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Andy Ihnatko
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Posted: 21 April 2013 at 7:22am | IP Logged | 10  

 Shaun Barry wrote:
Which is why, aside from the pretty pictures, the average issue of OFFICIAL HANDBOOK OF THE MARVEL UNIVERSE or WHO'S WHO bored me to tears as a kid.

As a kid, I was glad that I could get a quick answer to the question "That redhead in the X-Men who died a while ago and apparently Cyclops has never gotten over it...what was the deal, there?" They turn into problems when someone uses it to turn a creative discussion into semantic bickering ("No. See, it says right here: Spider-Man can lift a maximum of 10 tons. That makes him exactly twice as strong as this other guy. He can also run 15 MPH faster...").
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John Byrne
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Posted: 21 April 2013 at 7:29am | IP Logged | 11  

As I have noted before, OHOTMU and WHO'S WHO presented greater difficulties than they solved. In the case of OHOTMU, when a canonical answer to some question could not be found, there was a very bad habit of making stuff up without consulting the writers (or even creators) of the various characters. In the case of WHO'S WHO, there was an attempt to "lock" everything -- to say "this is in WHO'S WHO, and you can't use anything that isn't in WHO'S WHO!"

I very much approved of the (mostly ignored) original idea behind these books, as a handy reference for finding out how a character's powers worked or what their costumes looked like, and to prevent the creation of redundant characters -- but, well, neither series really turned out to be much use there. WHO'S WHO, in fact, by insisting on "dramatic" scenes of the characters, instead of the OHOTUMU style model shots, rendered it virtually useless for getting costume details. One of the reasons that I, when asked to do illos for WHO'S WHO, tried to stick to fairly standardized poses.

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Chris Basken
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Posted: 21 April 2013 at 10:46am | IP Logged | 12  

I think I'm seeing this more from Kip Lewis' angle.

 John Byrne wrote:
All of those are classic fanboy overthink, and the first time any of them drift thru your mind in any kind of serious need-to-know kind of way, it's time to look for another hobby.

I started reading comics at 10 or 11. By the time I picked up my first FF, I had already read the Foundation trilogy, so I was coming into comics from a SF world. So I think these kinds of thoughts drifted through my mind immediately, and they always kept me at an arm's distance from superheroes. Perhaps I should have never gotten into the hobby in the first place?

I was thrilled to see the OHOTMU (and OHOTMUDE) because I thought, as you say, it would be used primarily as guides for the writers, so they could work toward creating a self-consistent shared universe. I also remember hearing about that time that DC had a giant map of Metropolis on one wall, with significant locations thumbtacked to it. I have no idea if that was ever true, but I loved the idea of it. I thought it would bring us better stories. I wanted a strong SF mentality brought to superheroes.

Surely I wasn't the only one. I think there was a missed market there.

I was surprised that Marvel sold the OHOTMU at all, and thought maybe it was released to the general public only long after it had been created (as a writers' resource). Of the many things that eventually pushed me out of collecting mainstream comics (frequent reset buttons, inconsistent portrayal of the characters, the "Image-ification" of Marvel's art), one was the growing realization that very few creators were interested in maintaining a set of fantasy rules for how the universe worked. I didn't care what the rules were, I just wanted to be able to believe the writers were following them.
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