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Greg Woronchak
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 September 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 1631
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| Posted: 23 March 2013 at 7:45am | IP Logged | 1
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Larsen claims that 'correcting' artwork is a good tool to teach. I have a wonky suggestion: why not choose a JB page that shows how things are done right (there are a helluva a lot of those) and extol its virtues?
Instead of tearing down someone's work (and them by extension, no matter what the motive), maybe a young artist would be inspired by being exposed to an amazing, well crafted page?
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David Plunkert
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2012
Posts: 536
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| Posted: 23 March 2013 at 8:25am | IP Logged | 2
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So did Jack Kirby. So did Al Capp. So did Dick Sprang. It's a long list. But where those artists were different from Larsen is that they had the necessary skills UNDERNEATH the cartoon qualities. The drawing of the Savage Dragon posted a few pages back in this thread is "exaggerated and cartoony", but also lacking in underlying structure. iii ...I'd imagine anyone would be hard pressed to find anything drawn by Kirby, Capp, or Sprang that wasn't utterly convincing despite the stylization. Kirby's late period work where he squared knees, eliminated fingernails and used squiggles to define muscles is more severely stylized than his earlier work, but Kirby is still very consistent panel to panel in how he applies his vocabulary.
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Anthony J Lombardi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 9410
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| Posted: 23 March 2013 at 8:44am | IP Logged | 3
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"Stylization" is too often used in defense of bad drawing~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thank 'GOODNESS' someone said it. Even better that John Byrne said it. For the longest time I have hated that argument artist and fans have made to defend bad artwork.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133318
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| Posted: 23 March 2013 at 9:09am | IP Logged | 4
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...still very consistent panel to panel in how he applies his vocabulary. ••• And therein lies the key. Many artists who hide behind "stylization" do the same tricks panel to panel, page to page. But the same squinty eyes on every character, or the same gnashed (excess of) teeth, or hair that looks like grass and grass that looks like hair is not the same as "consistency". That's just a lack of scope.
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Jodi Moisan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6832
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| Posted: 23 March 2013 at 9:41am | IP Logged | 5
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I found it somewhat amusing. Larsen is one who has on occasion joined the chorus that declares no one to be welcome in this Forum unless they are prepared to properly genuflect to me. Dissenting opinions are not welcome! (No visits to the religion, politics and Shakespeare threads that pop up from time to time, apparently!)
The fact I am still a member proves that. I have not always agree with JB on how he reacts to members on here, I told him as much in a Halloween thread, I argued with him in a thread when autism was being talked about and when he "sighed" at a misuse of grammar in one of my posts, I told him it was in my opinion rude. I was not banned.
I appreciate Larsen professional insights.
Larsen is not doing this as an exercise in learning. He is"poking the bear". I can't believe people are acting like this is anything but that. Yes people have the right to disagree and add their two cents. But that is NOT what is happening here. Believe me, being a girl I have seen lots of "mean girl" behavior and that is exactly what this whole thing is. Read the twitter posts, it is like a group of 13 year old girls are attacking a girl that had the audacity to talk to their "boyfriend".It is petty and mean spirited.
It reminds me of the guy in the Yellow Hat, that went up to Liefeld at a convention and presented him with the book "how to draw the Marvel Way"and filmed himself doing it. That was petty and mean spirited, this is no different. This is not the only time he has done stuff like this to JB and the posts that go along with these Playing God Corrections are mean spirited.
I am amazed grown men act like this. I received an email from an ex Byrne fan that was pissed Byrne was rude to him on here. He threatened me and my son if I didn't stop supporting Byrne's work. He listed a bunch of personal info about my life, really scary stuff. It was nuts. I turned it over to my brother in law who is a US Marshall. These are the type of guys that love to see the stuff Larsen is doing right now. I just don't get it. Do people come on here and expect to become best buds with Byrne and if he happens to be rude to them, they are so out of sorts they feel they have to bring Byrne down a peg or two? Is that what makes them happy???
This year I buried my husband whom I loved with all my heart, believe me, there are lots of worse things in life, than an artist you admire not being all warm and fuzzy. If you don't like their work, move on, don't buy it. If he is rude to you, don't post here, if you can't get over it, hell spend time with someone you do love. I don't come here to be JB's best bud, he is an artist whose work I LOVE. If Larsen was in a forum and the conversation was flowing and he happen to point out mistakes Byrne made on a certain piece, fine, my guess would be that has happened before. But as someone else posted that is not the intent in this latest round of playing God.
Edited by Jodi Moisan on 23 March 2013 at 9:51am
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Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1681
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| Posted: 23 March 2013 at 11:10am | IP Logged | 6
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John Byrne wrote:
| Could you define the "older work" more precisely? Is there one particular period? If so, which? |
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At the risk of doing an Erik Larsen myself, let me try to (clumsily) elaborate. My comment was referring to your work during the early 80's, particularly your FF run when you did both pencils and inks - that's the style I really grew to love. I'm completely aware that you've grown as an artist since then, and improved in many respects. But as a stylistic choice, I prefer that earlier work. Don't get me wrong, I'm not silly enough to say your older work is "better" in absolute terms. There's much to love about your current work. It's just that I find the older stuff a slightly more attractive style to me personally.
I've tried to work out if it's just the nostalgia factor. I'm sure that's part of it, but it's not necessarily the whole story. For example, when I look at the smaller-sized images you post in recent commission threads, I often get the same feeling as when I look at your older stuff. It's only when I look at the full-sized images that I notice it doesn't sit as well with me as it should. The best I can describe it is that your linework seems to be more angular these days, with more frequent use of thinner lines, and small gaps in outlines. When viewed in smaller form, this isn't noticeable, but in larger form, or in published form, I notice it more and it's less visually pleasing to me than the more organic lines I see in your older work.
This is of course just my uneducated opinion. Unlike Larsen, I'm not suggesting that you're doing anything wrong. You've chosen to evolve your style, and I'm sure with good reason. Again, your current work is still head and shoulders above anyone else as far as I'm concerned.
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Brennan Voboril
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 January 2011
Posts: 1741
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| Posted: 23 March 2013 at 11:16am | IP Logged | 7
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"I received an email from an ex Byrne fan that was pissed Byrne was rude to him on here. He threatened me and my son if I didn't stop supporting Byrne's work. He listed a bunch of personal info about my life, really scary stuff. It was nuts. I turned it over to my brother in law who is a US Marshall. These are the type of guys that love to see the stuff Larsen is doing right now."
Wow. This reminds me of that movie with Robert DeNiro - Fan.
I am sorry that happened to you Jodi.
I believe you're correct in all you say about the sort. The Internet can be a wonderful tool and way of meeting people but it also can be a nightmare world of stalkers and trolls. I had a similar thing happen to my daughter (unrelated to comics or JB).
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Eric Ladd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 4505
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| Posted: 23 March 2013 at 12:00pm | IP Logged | 8
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I have avoided posting in this tread because I just can't imagine where I would start. However, thanks to Koroush I can simply agree with what he plainly states, but I enjoy JB's art in the last decade more than the material from my youth.
I would add that in my opinion the differentiator to an artist and a master is never settling and always pursuing improvement. Check out the movie "Jiro Dreams of Sushi" as an example or the many posts here by the Chief. I have never followed Erik Larsen's work, but can you see a change for the better from his earlier work? Is there a noticeable difference in his art every 5-10 years? Is the work he did last year the same as the work he did 20 years ago?
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Donald Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 February 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 3601
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| Posted: 23 March 2013 at 12:11pm | IP Logged | 9
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I just don't get it. Do people come on here and expect to become best buds with Byrne?( i cut this so I could use it sorry Jodi)
That's how it worked for me.
Isn't that right John? Ol' Buddy Ol' Pal?
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Brennan Voboril
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 January 2011
Posts: 1741
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| Posted: 23 March 2013 at 12:19pm | IP Logged | 10
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"Do people come on here and expect to become best buds with Byrne?"
I am just thankful JB is here to interact with his fans in this way and for the art he (and the commissioners) share with us. It is like a cherry at the top of a sundae.
For all the wild stories floating around of "mean John Byrne" you hear about the reality is quite the opposite in my opinion.
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Jodi Moisan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6832
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| Posted: 23 March 2013 at 12:59pm | IP Logged | 11
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That's how it worked for me.
Isn't that right John? Ol' Buddy Ol' Pal?
LOL
I am sorry that happened to you Jodi.
Thanks Brennan it happened a lot, which didn't shock me because I am pretty liberal and mouthy, but that one letter threatened my son and that is when I had enough.
I had a similar thing happen to my daughter (unrelated to comics or JB).
That is so sad Brennan, that would be tough for a parent. And it happens a lot. The cruelness of some people I just don't understand.
No one asks people to come to this site, if you don't like what JB says, don't read it or counter back in a civil manner. The funny thing is, there are people that say they hate Byrne but know everything that is said on here. They come to the site daily. That is sad.
Edited by Jodi Moisan on 23 March 2013 at 1:10pm
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Benny Hasa
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2011
Posts: 724
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| Posted: 23 March 2013 at 1:21pm | IP Logged | 12
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I received an email from an ex Byrne fan that was pissed Byrne was rude to him on here. He threatened me and my son if I didn't stop supporting Byrne's work. He listed a bunch of personal info about my life, really scary stuff. It was nuts ******************************** That's insane. The crazy part, is that this is believable as there really are such fanatical and delusional people out there. Sorry that happened to you Jodi.
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Topic Closed)
