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Topic: Uhmmm. . . . ? (Now with FREE Art Lessons from Erik Larsen!) (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Pascal LISE
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Posted: 22 March 2013 at 4:53pm | IP Logged | 1  

..or being deliberately obtuse

---

How well you demonstrate.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 22 March 2013 at 5:54pm | IP Logged | 2  

Mark: Please, Pascal, since you have stepped in to clear the air... Explain what is professional about the twitter posts and art corrections that Larsen has done which no one else here seems to see.

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Pascal: Which one specifically?

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ALL of them-- none more specifically than another. Obviously many here find it unprofessional to post "fixes" that make JB's examples of doing it wrong into example of doing it right.

If you want to tackle on in particular, why not show how Larsen's retread of JB's Generations 3 page is a professional thing to do-- even though the advice seems to be based on the mistaken notion that the art is meant to be seen in black and white and that Larsen's arbitrary changes are necessarily BETTER.

I'll go write an opera while I wait for your persuasive reply.




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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 22 March 2013 at 6:26pm | IP Logged | 3  

Nothing Larsen said on Twitter was remotely professional. One of the things he did was badmouth JB's writing on the Fantastic Four which I'm pretty sure most people would agree is the second best run on FF ever after Lee and Kirby's.

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Koroush Ghazi
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Posted: 22 March 2013 at 6:44pm | IP Logged | 4  

I haven't posted on this forum in quite a while, but I still check it infrequently, mainly to see the commissions and read about JB's upcoming work. This thread's title caught my eye though, because the notion of Erik Larsen giving (free) art lessons is so hilariously wrong, it warrants comment!

Firstly, yes, I've read through the entire thread. The issues seem quite clearly laid out:

1.     In my opinion, Erik Larsen is nowhere near as talented as JB. To me, Erik's art can best be described as wonky fanboy scratchings. In general, it's a fairly well accepted principle that the student should not give the master a lesson; it usually works the other way around.

2.     Erik Larsen appears to have singled out JB's work for "corrections". He knows how well-known JB's work is, and how his own work ranks way below it on all metrics, so leeching off Mr. Byrne's popularity is a simple but effective tactic to get attention from readers. If Larsen was genuine about educating people, he would use a steadily varying selection of artists for his demonstrations. And that would include heavy doses of corrections for the work of one Rob Liefeld. I mean, if you're serious about showing people how not to make simple art mistakes, who better to use than Liefeld?

3.     There are ways of doing things, it's known as etiquette. Even if we are to assume that Erik actually means no harm, the "Thing given a bath" comment for example comes across as an attempt to belittle another artist. His more recent comments cement the fact that Erik is being a smug little so-and-so. Which might be tolerable in some respects if he actually had any serious talent - see point 1 above.

4.     Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion. For better or worse, on the Internet, everyone is also entitled to actually voice that opinion. However uninformed opinions are effectively useless. That's what makes the Internet's signal-to-noise ratio so low. For every intelligent comment there are millions of unintelligent, uninformed opinions that drown it out. I don't walk into a surgical theatre and start giving a doctor my opinion on how best he should perform his operation. At best I'd be wasting his time. I'm not sure why people think the same is appropriate in other scenarios. There are plenty of times when it's perfectly OK just to keep your mouth shut. Or at least post with some semblance of humility, conscious of the fact that you're putting across an opinion, not a fact (e.g. "in my opinion, that movie was boring because...", not "that was the worst movie ever, the director has no idea...").

Anyway, the whole thing smacks of a complete lack of professionalism from Larsen. Which is not unexpected given his artwork has exactly the same vibe.

Now I'll qualify all of the above by stating that I don't think John Byrne is the perfect artist or creator, and stylistically, I personally prefer his older work, as it's more to my taste. However in the field of comics, I personally believe that there is no-one today who has the same combination of artistic talent, creative skill, and professional discipline than JB. If you're going to start picking examples of mistakes to correct, JB would be very close to the bottom of the list - there are far too many others to choose from whose work would provide much more juicy examples. That of course supposes that Erik Larsen actually wants to educate rather than pontificate.
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Wilson Mui
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Posted: 22 March 2013 at 7:32pm | IP Logged | 5  

Well said, Koroush.

I wonder if there have been any well-known comic artists who have come out defending Larsen's actions.  They must be privately laughing at Larsen for trying to give JB art lessons considering how bad his own work is.
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Brennan Voboril
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Posted: 22 March 2013 at 7:58pm | IP Logged | 6  

Koroush you raise some excellent points.

The entire idea of Larsen correcting Byrne is funny isn't it?  I mean this is THE John Byrne.  The guy is a living legend for Pete's sake.  X-Men.  FF.  Superman.  Next Men.  Wonder Woman.  She-Hulk.  JKFW.  The Avengers.  Spider-Man.  Namor.  I can go on.  There are not many comic creators around that approach Byrne in terms of output or talent or skill.   I think he's evolved into a better and better artist over the years.  The work he's putting out now is some of the best of his long career.  It just is.  We fans are getting our money's worth and then some.  High Ways.  Trio.  Cold War.  Star Trek.  More Next Men.  I have followed Byrne's work for a long time and I never thought I'd ever see the Next Men again.  It was almost a "slap me to see if I am awake" moment.  

There are not many comic artists who come close to Byrne and even less comic artist/writers like Byrne is.  He can do it all.  People seem to take nips at him because he can do it all and do it all well.  

I feel sorry for Larsen and if I were him I'd be feeling sort of embarrassed right about now.


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John Byrne
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Posted: 23 March 2013 at 3:34am | IP Logged | 7  

The sheer volume of work I have produced, coupled with the fact that I never seem to be satisfied, and am constantly pushing off in new directions, not all of which work, means there's plenty of stuff by me out there that could stand correcting. As I have mentioned many a time, there is very little of the beloved "old stuff" that I can look at without cringing. Even work where I know I was at the top of my game, for the time it was done, is still to me just page after page that scream "So much still to learn!"

Any artist worth his/her salt will feel this way to some degree. The moment an artist stops feeling that way, stagnation sets in. It's one of the reasons I am actually glad to be bedeviled by all my insecurities. Without them, I might have ended up like some artists I've seen who, like me, were elevated to the godhood before they deserved it but who, unlike me, "locked" at that point, stylistically, and so have shown no artistic growth in years, even decades.

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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 23 March 2013 at 4:53am | IP Logged | 8  

My problem with Erik Larsen "fixing" JB's work: If I prefer the artwork before Mr. Larsen "corrected" it, does that invalidate my opinion? Does that mean that my neanderthal-like understanding needs to be exposed to more of Mr. Larsen's views so that I know what looks proper and what doesn't?

This isn't just an Erik Larsen thing, I usually don't like when someone (writer or artist) points out how they've "improved" something. For example, Neil Gaiman implied that he was the Eternals concept a few years ago when he did the limited series. I didn't like the limited series as much as I prefered Kirby's run so I didn't really feel like he added anything to it other than he told a story about a Jack Kirby creation. There's a difference between "Here's how I would do it" and "Here's how I made it better".



Edited by Shawn Kane on 23 March 2013 at 4:56am
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Joie Simmons
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Posted: 23 March 2013 at 5:00am | IP Logged | 9  

You know, the problem here might be that, whether you like it or not, Larsen has a exaggerated and cartoony style. He shouldn't be taking artwork and "fixing" it, he should be taking artwork and showing how he would have made it more like his style, instead of imposing some other style on people like JB and Adams.

At least then he could make changes based on his own "expertise."




*I don't know if I've ever typed the word "expertise" before.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 23 March 2013 at 5:03am | IP Logged | 10  

My problem with Erik Larsen "fixing" JB's work: If I prefer the artwork before Mr. Larsen "corrected" it, does that invalidate my opinion? Does that mean that my neanderthal-like understanding needs to be exposed to more of Mr. Larsen's views so that I know what looks proper and what doesn't?

••

Based on the way Larsen comported himself during his brief sojourn into the Forum, I would suspect he would answer your questions with a resounding "YES!"

When he exited in disgust, he made it plenty plain that his egress was due to the lack of proper adulation he received here. Apparently he expected everyone -- myself included -- to immediately bow before his superior opinions.

I found it somewhat amusing. Larsen is one who has on occasion joined the chorus that declares no one to be welcome in this Forum unless they are prepared to properly genuflect to me. Dissenting opinions are not welcome! (No visits to the religion, politics and Shakespeare threads that pop up from time to time, apparently!)

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John Byrne
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Posted: 23 March 2013 at 5:09am | IP Logged | 11  

…Larsen has a exaggerated and cartoony style…

••

So did Jack Kirby. So did Al Capp. So did Dick Sprang. It's a long list.

But where those artists were different from Larsen is that they had the necessary skills UNDERNEATH the cartoon qualities. The drawing of the Savage Dragon posted a few pages back in this thread is "exaggerated and cartoony", but also lacking in underlying structure.

"Stylization" is too often used in defense of bad drawing. I am reminded of a panel I was on, years ago, with Todd McFarlane. The Toddler defended Liefeld's art, comparing it to Jack Kirby. "Nobody has big square knees," he said, as if that, and that alone distinguished Kirby's work, "but Kirby draws EVERYBODY with big square knees, so that makes it okay!" Kirby's strengths were shuffled aside in order to create a defense that seemed to say "If you draw EVERYTHING badly, it becomes GOOD!"

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John Byrne
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Posted: 23 March 2013 at 5:12am | IP Logged | 12  

…I don't think John Byrne is the perfect artist or creator, and stylistically, I personally prefer his older work, as it's more to my taste.

••

Could you define the "older work" more precisely? Is there one particular period? If so, which?

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