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Topic: Uhmmm. . . . ? (Now with FREE Art Lessons from Erik Larsen!) (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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rob fleming
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Posted: 22 March 2013 at 5:39am | IP Logged | 1  

Not trying to bend your words in any way. Just asking the question for clarification.

The problem with your non answer above  I have is that all art talent being subjective, equal and superior talent are in the eyes of the beholder. For instance some people may disagree with you regarding Neal Adams being a superior artist than Ross Andru. Some people (not myself) may consider Erik Larsen an equal or superior talent than both yourself and Neal Adams.


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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 22 March 2013 at 5:58am | IP Logged | 2  

I don't know about The Chief but the guys I would consider his peers are the ones who came up around the same time professionally who are still working in comics today like George Perez, Frank Miller, Walt Simonson, or John Romita Jr. It takes a lot of talent to work in the comics field that long and still be able to get regular work more than thirty years later.

And I know there's no accounting for taste and art is subjective but anyone that thinks Larsen is equal or superior to John Byrne or Neal Adams probably needs new eyeballs.
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William T. Byrd
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Posted: 22 March 2013 at 6:03am | IP Logged | 3  

The problem with your non answer above  I have is that all art talent being subjective, equal and superior talent are in the eyes of the beholder. For instance some people may disagree with you regarding Neal Adams being a superior artist than Ross Andru. Some people (not myself) may consider Erik Larsen an equal or superior talent than both yourself and Neal Adams.


Are there any examples of Larsen or Liefeld drawing realistic or believable anatomy, not just offering up their own "stylized" anatomy that looks to me like it is masking deficiencies in their ability? JB and Neal Adams have no shortage of examples of anatomy that looks right. Like what you like, but I think there is a difference between liking a style of an artist better, and acknowledging which artists are more accomplished and skilled at their craft.
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Robert White
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Posted: 22 March 2013 at 6:03am | IP Logged | 4  

I'm starting to feel that in some cases art can be objective. ;)
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Craig Markley
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Posted: 22 March 2013 at 6:10am | IP Logged | 5  

How is "Not in a million years. Which I have made perfectly clear on many an occassion." and "No -- but at least as good." non answers????

Just because you didn't get the answers you were looking for doesn't make them non answers.

Also, WIZARD had a huge deal with making Image and its members a big deal for the first few years. There must have been a little payola involved!
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rob fleming
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Posted: 22 March 2013 at 6:15am | IP Logged | 6  

This is the non answer I was referring to:

So if I may ask you directly, what is your position on one peer making unsolicited changes to another peers work?

••

Before I can answer that, we must be clear on what we mean by "peer".

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John Byrne
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Posted: 22 March 2013 at 6:25am | IP Logged | 7  

That's not a "non-answer", that's a QUESTION.

Before I can answer Luke Smyth's question about how "peers" should behave, I need to know how he defines "peers".

I then go on to give my own definition of the word. When Luke Smyth gives us his own definition, I can answer more completely.

But, again, this would be perfectly clear to anyone who wasn't deliberately trying to find something else.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 22 March 2013 at 6:27am | IP Logged | 8  

Also, WIZARD had a huge deal with making Image and its members a big deal for the first few years. There must have been a little payola involved!

••

An unsubstantiated charge like that has no place in this discussion.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 22 March 2013 at 6:30am | IP Logged | 9  

Like what you like, but I think there is a difference between liking a style of an artist better, and acknowledging which artists are more accomplished and skilled at their craft.

••

That's the central core of this whole thread, really. As already noted, Larsen seems to have difficulty distinguishing between "I don't LIKE this" and "This is WRONG."

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Matt Reed
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Posted: 22 March 2013 at 6:34am | IP Logged | 10  

 John Byrne wrote:
Before I can answer Luke Smyth's question about how "peers" should behave, I need to know how he defines "peers".

Exactly.  It's a discussion.  Expecting to be on the same page regarding language before answering is natural.  Luke did not ask "do you think yourself equal or superior to X artist?"  I'd note that when Rob did ask two direct questions, JB answered them.  Far from "non answers".

It's ever so easy to parse posts on a message board in an effort to paint someone in a negative light.  What's often most hard for some people is to take what is written, here and in other threads, at face value. 
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rob fleming
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Posted: 22 March 2013 at 6:41am | IP Logged | 11  

Then given your own definition of peer(equal or superior talent) how would you answer the question?

I have no hidden agenda or ulterior motive. Just want an honest answer to an honest question.

What is your position on one peer(your own definition) making unsolicited changes to another peers work?


Edited by rob fleming on 22 March 2013 at 6:43am
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 22 March 2013 at 6:49am | IP Logged | 12  

"All art is subjective"

That phrase gets bandied about often and normally is the last line of defense for many.  Art is not only what a person may visually put on a page or a canvas, but also what one puts on a stage, a movie screen, in a novel or a classic car.  Choices made by the artist are subjective, yes, insomuch as no two artists will make the exact same choices.  But "all art is subjective" does not automatically mean that "there is no right or wrong".  Choices come with the risk of making either a good choice or a bad choice*.  Playing "Lenny" in OF MICE AND MEN as a homicidal maniac would be a choice, but it would be the wrong choice.  That's not subjective.  An actor who made that choice, even if it were Olivier, wouldn't be imune to people correctly pointing that out.  He doesn't get a pass because he happens to work in a field where people excuse his choice as being "subjective". Sure, there would be some who liked that choice, but it doesn't make it right.  

In the end, I get oh so tired of people tossing about that phrase as if it's the end of a conversation or using it to mean that there are no wrong choices.  Human beings make choices every day.  Artists in any field are not somehow in a special and distinct category where none of their choices can ever be considered wrong. 

*Of course I realize "good" and "bad" are themselves subjective in nature. One person's "good" is another person's "bad".  Here, though, I do mean right or wrong.  Important to note for those looking to parse the post, there is not one single right choice and one single wrong choice.  It's a spectrum, which is where I think people often get confused and ultimately just cop out and say it's all subjective no matter the choice made.  That's where nuances like "it didn't work for me, but..." come into play.  Again, though, that can also be a copout.  In the aforementioned "Lenny" as homicidal maniac example, I think it would be a copout for someone to say "if it worked for you, great, but not for me".  It's wrong, plain and simple, based on any reading of the work by Steinbeck.
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