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Dave Jasinski Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 July 2006 Location: United States Posts: 59
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Posted: 21 March 2013 at 8:32pm | IP Logged | 1
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"We've established an equivalence between Larsen and greats like Adams and Byrne? Wow, this little stunt has advanced Larsen's career more than a thousand issues of Savage Dragon ever could! "
That was my big problem too. Larsen himself used an analogy of Stephen King criticizing J.K. Rowing as if he and Byrne were comparable peers. The analogy of Lucas/Spielberg was made here. Larson is nowhere near Byrne, Adams or Perez but criticizing them somehow creates a false equivalence. If Larsen were honest he'd admit this was the whole point instead of pretending these are just innocent, instructive art lessons.
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Luke Smyth Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Ireland Posts: 791
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Posted: 21 March 2013 at 9:20pm | IP Logged | 2
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Joe, you can't have one rule for some and a different rule for others. It's either okay to do something or it's not, good intentions notwithstanding .
This practice is not prevalent among the professional community, presumably out of respect for ones peers, applying to all levels of talent.
Larsen's reasoning for doing what he did was to educate. Tangents seem to be his bugbear. Someone asked him why he didn't use examples of Rob Liefeld's work to make his point. His reply was along the lines of Liefeld's work being so whacky it works. But here's the thing, a tangent is a tangent is a tangent no matter the artist.
If he used Liefeld's work, those he professes to educate would still learn what a tangent was, but then so too would Liefeld. Larsen presumably won't go there for fear that Liefeld's work would suddenly fall apart. Bullshit.
His use of Byrne art is baiting, pure and simple, unbecoming of a professional in this industry. From my point of view, both JB and Neal get a fail, Larsen gets a double fail.
Irrespective of his spurious motives, my contention is he shouldn't have used another artists work in the first place, without having at least the decency to inform that artist first.
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Joe Zhang Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 12857
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Posted: 21 March 2013 at 11:08pm | IP Logged | 3
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"His reply was along the lines of Liefeld's work being so whacky it works. "
Which is why I've called Liefeld's style a Klingon cloaking device. It's so wrong on so many levels, criticism is a lost cause, thereby making it immune to scrutiny.
Image probably did some good things as a venue for creator-owned comics. But by allowing the works of Liefeld to thrive, it showed a generation of writers and artists that you really didn't have to be any good at all to succeed in comics. All you needed is Marvel or DC to pump you up, ergo Bendis, Millar, etc.
Edited by Joe Zhang on 21 March 2013 at 11:10pm
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Andrew W. Farago Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4079
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Posted: 21 March 2013 at 11:58pm | IP Logged | 4
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But by allowing the works of Liefeld to thrive
Wasn't that the work of the customers, though? The customers who built him up into a superstar when he was at Marvel? You can't blame a company for publishing a popular artist and letting comic shops and fans buy his stuff by the truckload.
Liefeld was at the right place at the right time, fans loved his stuff, and interestingly enough, they outgrew it. He missed deadlines, didn't stick with projects, people burned out on him, and the fanbase for his current work is a fraction of what it was in the early '90s. I'm not sure why people feel the need to keep singling him out. He hit some crazy career peaks about 20 years ago, but hasn't torn up the sales charts in a long time. Time to move on.
Jim Lee, on the other hand, kept producing comics, worked on his craft, and can produce the industry's top-selling books at will, something he's been able to do for 20 years straight. Todd McFarlane can probably have a top-selling book again if he were to do straight-up art chores on Spawn for a full story arc. Liefeld going back to X-Force will sell less than half of what JB doing a story arc on FF or X-Men would. Having your publisher back you is great, but that's only going to take you so far if the customers don't like what you're selling.
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Joe Zhang Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 12857
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Posted: 22 March 2013 at 12:13am | IP Logged | 5
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"Wasn't that the work of the customers, though?"
Customers, yes. Readers, not really. Liefeld was a brand that was used to sell polybagged books to speculators. And the fault for the speculator boom and bust lies squarely on the publishers, including Image.
"I'm not sure why people feel the need to keep singling him out. "
I'm not really singling him out; his influence can be felt on a lot of the new artists. There's no respect for anatomy, or storytelling. It's all about establishing the artist's own style. That's the ultimate legacy of Liefeld and Image, and not a good one.
Edited by Joe Zhang on 22 March 2013 at 12:15am
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Andrew W. Farago Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4079
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Posted: 22 March 2013 at 1:55am | IP Logged | 6
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There's no respect for anatomy, or storytelling. It's all about establishing the artist's own style. That's the ultimate legacy of Liefeld and Image, and not a good one.
I'd chalk it more up to lack of ability than lack of respect. We had an explosion of style over substance in the early 1990s, but an artist who's lacking in fundamentals who gets job offers from editors, sells hundreds of thousands of comics, and has fans lining up around the block to see him isn't going to say, "Gosh, I don't deserve any of this yet. Maybe I should go back to law school." You're going to ride it out as best you can, get some on-the-job training, and hope for the best.
The pendulum in comics art now has swung toward realism and heavy use of reference, and computer coloring is now as important--or more important--than good inking. The comment about the importance of establishing a flashy style doesn't strike me as correct right now--I think a lot of DC artists have very interchangeable styles at the moment, to the point that a book can have six or seven pencilers on it without missing a beat (or a deadline). I can't think of the last artist in the "let's forget about anatomy and just go crazy" mold who became a superstar for Marvel, DC, Image, or any big publisher. I'd argue that Greg Land and Greg Horn have been a much bigger influence on comics in the past 15 years than Rob Liefeld's been (not counting the rise of Cable and Deadpool as the only characters of the past 25 years who can carry their own books at Marvel).
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Shane Matlock Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 August 2012 Location: United States Posts: 1760
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Posted: 22 March 2013 at 2:43am | IP Logged | 7
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The bit about Larsen bringing up King criticizing JK Rowling doesn't really jibe with the King quote I'm familiar with. He does however insult the author of Twilight while praising Rowling. King is actually a huge fan of the Harry Potter books.
Stephen King: "Both Rowling and Meyer, they're speaking directly to young people. The real difference is that Jo Rowling is a terrific writer and Stephenie Meyer can't write worth a darn. She's not very good." By the way, one Twilight fan responded to King's diss of Meyer with:
"King is no Gabriel Garcia Marquez so I don't understand why he gets to say who is a good writer and who is not."
Edited by Shane Matlock on 22 March 2013 at 2:54am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133317
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Posted: 22 March 2013 at 4:31am | IP Logged | 8
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So if I may ask you directly, what is your position on one peer making unsolicited changes to another peers work?•• Before I can answer that, we must be clear on what we mean by "peer". In my mind, a "peer" is someone of equal talent, not just someone working in the same field. Erik Larsen is not the "peer" of Neal Adams, for instance. Also part of this equation would be the whether the artist making the changes is superior to the subject of the changes. Again, Neal Adams is a better artist than Ross Andru. (This is simply fact, and not a negative judgement of Ross's work in any way.) This does not give the superior artist carte blanche to make changes, but it does mean that such changes as are made are likely to be an improvement. Joe Sinnott made a LOT of changes when inking Kirby on FANTASTIC FOUR. We think of those comics as some of the best ever created, and they are clearly better than contemporary issues inked by Vinnie Colletta, or even Dick Ayers. ("Even" because I really like what Ayers did over KIrby, but there is no question in my mind that, artistically, the Kirby/Sinnott combo was superior.) In contrast, when Sinnott inked Neal on THOR, the match was not completely successful, and the pages, while still spectacular, were somehow LESS spectacular than what we were seeing in AVENGERS or X-MEN inked by Tom Palmer. (On the other hand, I don't think Tom's inking style would have been a good pairing with Kirby.) A couple of decades ago, I was offered the job of inking an issue of a comic drawn by Ernie Colon. I am a great admirer of Colon's crisp, clean style, but looking at the pages I realized my own style, at the time, was so different from his that I would not be able to prevent myself overpowering his pencils. He would simply disappear, so I declined. Unfortunately the book was then given to another inker who is notorious for overpowering the pencils, and Colon did, indeed, disappear. And, doubly unfortunate, the end result was not nearly as good as the pencils had been. The inker, who had not been trained as a penciler, made arbitrary changes based on how he'd learned to ink, and the result was a mess.
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12708
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Posted: 22 March 2013 at 4:59am | IP Logged | 9
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...not the "peer" of Neal Adams...
***
This is just my opinion, but I doubt I would need more than one hand to count his peers!
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rob fleming Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2013 Location: Australia Posts: 7
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Posted: 22 March 2013 at 5:10am | IP Logged | 10
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John Byrne said: In my mind, a "peer" is someone of equal talent, not just someone working in the same field. Erik Larsen is not the "peer" of Neal Adams, for instance.
So you believe yourself to be of equal talent to Neal Adams?
JB: Also part of this equation would be the whether the artist making the changes is superior to the subject of the changes.
And superior to Jim Lee?
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Robert White Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4560
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Posted: 22 March 2013 at 5:18am | IP Logged | 11
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Don't take this as an overzealous John Byrne fan "defending" JB on his own site, but at this point, yes, JB is without question a "peer" of Neal Adams. He's actually produced more great work at this point, too.
I love Neal Adams, and quantity does not equal quality, but JB simply has more quality given that he, well, has simply drawn more "classic" comics than Neal Adams. JB, Walt Simonson, George Perez, Alan Davis, Jose Luis Garcia Lopez, etc, didn't start out on the same level as Neal Adams, but they all are now. They've all grown in skill and talent and their best work rivals Neal Adams best work in my eyes.
Edited by Robert White on 22 March 2013 at 5:19am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133317
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Posted: 22 March 2013 at 5:19am | IP Logged | 12
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John Byrne said: In my mind, a "peer" is someone of equal talent, not just someone working in the same field. Erik Larsen is not the "peer" of Neal Adams, for instance.So you believe yourself to be of equal talent to Neal Adams? •• Not in a million years. Which I have made perfectly clear on many an occassion. +++++ JB: Also part of this equation would be the whether the artist making the changes is superior to the subject of the changes. And superior to Jim Lee? •• No -- but at least as good. You seem to be struggling -- and without great success -- to bend my words to fit some kind of agenda of your own. I suggest you make it easier on yourself, and just take what I say as what I say.
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