Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 41 Next >>
Topic: Uhmmm. . . . ? (Now with FREE Art Lessons from Erik Larsen!) (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
Posted: 20 March 2013 at 11:56pm | IP Logged | 1  

You'd think John Byrne himself has earned the right to some respect from other artists. But no, that's not how the comic book industry rolls. 
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Andrew W. Farago
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 July 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4079
Posted: 21 March 2013 at 1:20am | IP Logged | 2  

Most of the people I know in the industry are big fans of JB, and have plenty of respect for him.  Everybody's read his X-Men and Fantastic Four and Superman and any number of other books he's done over the past four decades, and he's one of the most highly regarded mainstream comic book artists of the past quarter-century.  Those young upstarts from Image--most of whom are 50 or pretty close to it--are all fans of JB's, and I'm sure they're exactly aware of how many of their opportunities stem from JB becoming a superstar artist in the 1980s--and from Neal Adams becoming a superstar in the 1970s--and from Jack Kirby in the 1960s...

But there's bad blood between JB and the Image crew dating back to the formation of the company, twenty years ago now, so I can't exactly say I'm shocked if one side has some unflattering things to say about the other.  Most of the Image founders never badmouth anybody, Liefeld manages to take a hell of a lot of abuse in stride, and I guess we know who the troublemaker in the group is. 
Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133317
Posted: 21 March 2013 at 4:52am | IP Logged | 3  

Those young upstarts from Image--most of whom are 50 or pretty close to it--are all fans of JB's, and I'm sure they're exactly aware of how many of their opportunities stem from JB becoming a superstar artist in the 1980s--and from Neal Adams becoming a superstar in the 1970s--and from Jack Kirby in the 1960s...

••

Ah, yes. That would explain McFarlane's essay about what idiots Kirby, Ditko, and others, including myself, were, for not starting our own Image-like companies "back when they were hot". In my case, according to the Toddler, 1975. (You all remember how I burned up the stands with WHEELIE AND THE CHOPPER BUNCH, right?)

Back to Top profile | search
 
Shane Matlock
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 August 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 1760
Posted: 21 March 2013 at 5:56am | IP Logged | 4  

"In my case, according to the Toddler, 1975. (You all remember how I burned up the stands with WHEELIE AND THE CHOPPER BUNCH, right?)"

Hahaha!

The Image guys only had the money to start their own company, on the backs of Malibu comics no less, using the increased royalties that Marvel paid them because other creators and editors had fought hard for better royalties. They also greatly benefited from the insane speculator boom that had idiots buying multiple copies of X-Men and X-Force and Toddler's Spider-Man series. The first issues of which aren't worth the paper they're printed on now because there weren't millions of comics fans in existence. The first decade (or more) of Image comics was absolutely god awful unreadable crap with, for that most part, badly drawn pin ups (with the exception of Jim Lee whose comics were still badly written but pretty). 

Image is putting out some good stuff these days (Saga, Fatale) but none of it is from the founding seven members. It's by writers who can write and artists that can draw.

Back to Top profile | search
 
James Johnson
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 March 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 2156
Posted: 21 March 2013 at 6:00am | IP Logged | 5  

You mean there weren't any Charlton company wide crossovers that showcased WHEELIE AND THE CHOPPER BUNCH that helped moved that book during that time?!?!?!   ;-)

 

...damn.....



Edited by James Johnson on 21 March 2013 at 6:00am
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133317
Posted: 21 March 2013 at 6:06am | IP Logged | 6  

I have been saying for decades now that probably the biggest flaw in most comic "creators" is NO SENSE OF HISTORY. This is true of many self-proclaimed fans, too. The industry as they found it is the industry as it ha always been.* They have been trained to parrot names like "Jack Kirby", or even "John Byrne", but they have no concept of the environments in which we worked.

The same essay in which McFarlane chided me for not creating my own "Image" in 1975 was the one in which he described the Direct Sales Market as having been around for thirty-five years, at a time when the actual number was more like 15.

Image was created by an extraordinary confluence of effects, built up over many, many years. (I remember Frank Miller grumbling whenever one of the Image boys would start waving the banners of "Creator's Rights". "Didn't we already WIN that one?" Frank would ask.)

As I have said many a time, McFarlane likes to present himself as a completely Self-Made Man, but doing so is very much like a championship surfer taking credit for the wave.

______

* Terry Austin tells the story of getting into an argument with a young staffer up at Marvel. Terry was complaining about the extra work in inking unlettered pages. The young Assistant Editor insisted that all comics were done without lettering on the pages AND ALWAYS HAD BEEN!!!

Back to Top profile | search
 
Robert LaGuardia
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 15 November 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 1296
Posted: 21 March 2013 at 6:36am | IP Logged | 7  

Shane there was at least one bright spot in Image's first decade-Sam
Kieth's The Maxx.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Shane Matlock
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 August 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 1760
Posted: 21 March 2013 at 7:16am | IP Logged | 8  

JB, and after all of McFarlane's screaming from the mountaintops  proclaiming himself the champion of creators rights, Neil Gaiman had to sue him over trying to screw him out of ownership and royalties of characters Gaiman created. You don't see him writing too many essays these days or doing much of anything else, including drawing anything. I guess he does write Spawn again but it's not exactly burning up the charts. Meanwhile Spider-Man is a top ten book again without anything close to a superstar artist on it. Not that I'm really rooting for Marvel either, but it goes to show that the characters and the history are more important than the creators and their egos or their flash in the pan brush with fame and expensive baseballs.

Robert, I never cared much for Sam Keith's art. I enjoyed the surreal aspect of it, but everything just looks too bulky. I did however like Dale Keown but found The Pitt as much of a badly written mess as the other Image books. I'm sure The Maxx was probably better written than some of the rest though since I believe William Messner-Loebs wrote the earliest issues.




Edited by Shane Matlock on 21 March 2013 at 7:17am
Back to Top profile | search
 
Tim O Neill
Byrne Robotics Security


Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10937
Posted: 21 March 2013 at 7:44am | IP Logged | 9  

I think intent is important when it comes to criticism, but it's hard to read intent.  Sometimes even for the person delivering the criticism!

I think the important thing is context.  Roger Ebert is a film reviewer - he is paid to not have an alliance with a film company so he can be as objective as possible.  His job is to cut through the publicity BS and give an unvarnished opinion.

Erik Larsen is an artist, but he is also a publisher, so his criticism has a much different context.  What is his intent?  To show other artists “don’t cross me or I will publicly go after you”?  JB is critical of Image, so from a business point of view, he may be need to marginalize JB to defend his company.  Or maybe he feels personally wounded that a childhood hero won’t give him the respect he feels he deserves.  And he knows that JB will never work for him, so he can criticize him and not jeopardize a professional relationship.

JB is an independent artist who is rare in his outspokenness.  Most artists in this genre don’t speak out, as there could be consequences.  I like that JB accepts the consequences and also walks the walk – he makes really excellent books and stunning commissions, always striving to improve.

The criticism of the art also needs context.

Larsen criticizes JB over years and in a cruel way.  So when he messes with the art multiple times, it fits everything he has said and done before.  It's malicious, and the art corrections are that of a hectoring school teacher.

JB corrected Neal Adams' art once.  Compare that to the many, many times JB has praised Adams' work and cited him as a key influence.  There was even a time when Adams and JB had a disagreement online - it hasn’t stopped JB from praising Adams over the years.

 

 




Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133317
Posted: 21 March 2013 at 8:26am | IP Logged | 10  

There was even a time when Adams and JB had a disagreement online - it hasn’t stopped JB from praising Adams over the years.

••

More of a misunderstanding than a disagreement.

Tom Palmer had mentioned to me that the pencils he got from Neal on later issues of X-MEN were very loose, and closer to what today we might call breakdowns. When I mentioned this here -- as a comment, not a criticism -- Neal joined the Forum and posted some stunning scans of his AVENGERS pencils from the same period. But, of course, it wasn't the AVENGERS Tom had been talking about. A misunderstanding.

It all boiled away in just a few days, but the trolls still like to remind us, from time to time, that Neal and I "hate" each other.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Greg Woronchak
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 04 September 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 1631
Posted: 21 March 2013 at 8:28am | IP Logged | 11  

He'd be qualified to instruct at art college

I laughed out loud at this, couldn't help it. I'd avoid that class <g>.
Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
Brennan Voboril
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 15 January 2011
Posts: 1741
Posted: 21 March 2013 at 8:29am | IP Logged | 12  

I agree Tim.  It isn't about art at all.  If JB was a plumber, or anything else, I could see Larsen coming in and doing the same thing - in essence moaning he could have done it better.  It's a personal attack by Larsen.  One look at the Twitter history tells any observer what is going on.  

I've never seen anything but professionalism from Byrne.  

It is quite obvious to me that Larsen has a personal grudge against JB.  Why?  Who knows.  It could be jealousy or it could be hurt feelings or a hundred other things.  Who really knows what is in someone's mind when they go on a several year rampage of snide comments.  It almost seems an obsession with Larsen.  

Yes, JB gave his opinion on Image and the mentality that reigned there.  The "speculator mentality" is what I call it - the "growing roses" idea.  I always found that "roses" comment to be very insulting to comic legends like Curt Swan, Jack Kirby, Joe Kubert, Gene Colan, Don Heck and all the rest who put out monthly books many of us grew up on. 

Back to Top profile | search
 

<< Prev Page of 41 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login