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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133317
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| Posted: 18 March 2013 at 8:55am | IP Logged | 1
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At the very least, Larsen's "critiques" are in poor taste. As JB mentioned, the problem with tangents are they make they piece look flat. In relation to JB's Thing piece, I think this was avoided by variations in line thickness and a touch of separation between the background and Ben Grimm.•• Not to mention the fact that since Ben's arm is CROSSING IN FRONT of the lamp post, IT'S NOT A TANGENT! As I noted, Larsen seems to to understand what the word means. But it's all moot, in any case, Larsen reveals his intent -- to be snarky -- with his giving the Thing a "bath" remark.
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 18 March 2013 at 9:28am | IP Logged | 2
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ANDREW: *I felt kind of guilty a few weeks ago after posting a Peanuts strip on my Facebook page and pointing out that it wasn't one of Schulz's best strips. Snoopy danced around in his aerobics outfit, then said "Flashbeagle!" in the fourth panel. Some of my friends ripped me a new one and accused me of unfairly dogging Charles Schulz and his ability, but I don't think it diminishes my love of his work one bit that I singled out one out of 20,000 strips as probably not being as good as the rest. I don't think I'm less of a Kirby fan for not digging Silver Star as much as the Fourth World, and I shouldn't have to turn in my Neal Adams fan club card if I bailed out halfway through Batman: Odyssey.
SER: I suppose my reaction would be that Schulz produced SO MUCH GREAT work that focusing on the less impressive seems pointless to me. It's like the music blogs that make fun of Paul McCartney's weaker work. Why? This is a guy who you can fill volumes with discussion of his best work.
This doesn't mean that I think we should blindly and dogmatically claim that an artist only produces brilliant work, but do their worst efforts need our attention? Wouldn't they sink to the bottom of the sea of obscurity without our help? I'd rather talk about "Hush" or "Once More with Feeling" from "Buffy" than "Inca Mummy Girl."
I don't agree with Larsen's opinion of JB's pages that he "corrected" but even if I did, I'd still believe that it would be more constructive to start a thread discussing what works about what he thinks is an amazing splash page.
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Vinny Valenti
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 8117
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| Posted: 18 March 2013 at 9:55am | IP Logged | 3
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I feel as though it's been "easier" to pick nits with JB's work because there's so much of it out there, relative to other artists still working today. Given a person that dutifully produced no less than 2 books per month for about 30 years straight, you stand a chance to find more pages to find fault with over someone who struggles to meet a deadline for just one title over the course of the year.
That said, I could probably count the JB panels which I felt were "off" using both hands at most. Not being anything close to a professional artist, it's not for me to point those out anyway.
But for Larsen, having produced a fraction of the number of pages in his 25+ years in the business, I'd have to whip out a scientific calculator...
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Benny Hasa
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2011
Posts: 724
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| Posted: 18 March 2013 at 10:41am | IP Logged | 4
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I think a healthy debate is a good thing, and for the most part this is a great place for that. The issue I have is with name calling. You don't like JB's art? Fine, that's your prerogative. Don't like Larsen's art? Fine, that's your prerogative. Do I agree with Larsen's opinion? No. I think he has the right to speak his mind, as does JB in his opinion on Larsen's art. We are all different. We are not going to share the same opinions, and that's fine. I welcome a healthy debate. What I take issue in is Joe Zhang resorting to name calling Andrew for his opinions. I love coming here and reading discussions that aren't always about puppies and rainbows. This forum has one of the most intelligent groups of people on the internet. That's a thing to be proud of. Let's not insult fellow board members because they don't share your opinion. Nothing wrong with embracing a healthy challenging debate. I still stand that by Larsen being a great guy and I think JB is a great guy. That's my opinion, and I accept not everyone is going to agree with that. I just don't expect to be called a "dodo head" or something of that nature for it.
Edited by Benny Hasa on 18 March 2013 at 10:50am
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Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 16499
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| Posted: 18 March 2013 at 11:27am | IP Logged | 5
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Andrew Farago wrote:
| ...Is completely missing my point something that you're able to do automatically, or are you putting a concerted effort into it?... |
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If I am missing the point, it seems most people here are missing it, as well. That seems to indicate that you aren't very good in making your point clear.
Andrew wrote:
| ...And Larsen wouldn't be a "professor," in this case, I'd guess he's a fellow student. Maybe some punk, know-it-all freshman who's poking shots at an upperclassman, but both of them have been working professionally for decades... |
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You are correct in that he wouldn't be the "professor," he is "God." That is his own description. So, I should have used that term, instead, I suppose.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133317
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| Posted: 18 March 2013 at 11:33am | IP Logged | 6
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ANDREW: *I felt kind of guilty a few weeks ago after posting a Peanuts strip on my Facebook page and pointing out that it wasn't one of Schulz's best strips. Snoopy danced around in his aerobics outfit, then said "Flashbeagle!" in the fourth panel. Some of my friends ripped me a new one and accused me of unfairly dogging Charles Schulz and his ability, but I don't think it diminishes my love of his work one bit that I singled out one out of 20,000 strips as probably not being as good as the rest. I don't think I'm less of a Kirby fan for not digging Silver Star as much as the Fourth World, and I shouldn't have to turn in my Neal Adams fan club card if I bailed out halfway through Batman: Odyssey. •• There is a function of fan mentality here. You had a PEANUTS strip you didn't think worked. You didn't dig SILVER STAR. You bailed on BATMAN: ODYSSEY. Who cares? The internet has created a soapbox from which anyone and everyone can announce their likes, dislikes, opinions, etc, AS IF THEY MATTER. That's what idiotic sites like Twitter are all about. Omigod! You had a sandwich for lunch! WHO CARES?? And, yes, this extends to website forums. It could be argued that my forty or so years in the business have bought me some degree of credibility when discussing comicbooks and comicbook art -- but look at all the other topics that come up here! Why should anybody care what I think? Bottom line, if you didn't like the PEANUTS strip, why did you feel you had to mention it? Why did you feel you had to go out of your way to mention it, make an effort to mention it? Was there some part of your brain that was afraid that some distant day might come when you'd say "I really like PEANUTS," and someone would immediately pounce on you with "Even the FLASHBEAGLE strip??" I've seen that a lot at cons, over the years. Fans who feel that they have to qualify everything they say, lest they be "caught".
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Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 16499
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| Posted: 18 March 2013 at 11:35am | IP Logged | 7
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Jodi wrote:
| .... This is about disrespecting someone. The last comment "Not by a long shot" is pretty telling on the motivation behind this. If this was about just wanting to enlighten people that may want to one day work in comics, as someone else posted, there are tons of unknown artists more than willing to have a Larsen critique... |
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Exactly! Heck, I went to Erik Larsen at a convention to show him my work, and he was very nice to me and said good things about my work. I have no personal beef with the guy, I just think what he did to JB's art was tacky and full of himself. And I don't see any problem calling him out on it anymore than he had a problem doing what he did with JB's art.
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Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 16499
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| Posted: 18 March 2013 at 11:43am | IP Logged | 8
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John Byrne wrote:
| ...But it's all moot, in any case, Larsen reveals his intent -- to be snarky -- with his giving the Thing a "bath" remark.. |
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I don't see how that could be taken any other way. The texture you gave the Thing was a matter of personal style, and was not "wrong" in any way. Larsen changed it simply because he didn't care for it himself, not because there was anything wrong with the details.
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Lars Johansson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 June 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6113
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| Posted: 18 March 2013 at 2:08pm | IP Logged | 9
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Jodi, we don't know if anybody has for example Asperger, a mild form of autism, and very often they get hung out like this, so I'm disappointed that you haven't showed some understanding, you know what I mean. If it's a regular guy who acted poorly or if it's an Asperger or something else who acts like a genius we don't know about anybody. You were also in an harassing another guy, let's keep him anonymous and call him Cemento, on a facebook group. You are all Americans, be nice. And tomorrow everyone, or any day you like, I urge you to go to a place with retarded people, observe them, then come back and tell me you don't agree.
Added: everybody should answer questions when critisized in thir profession, but that "Art Lesson by" in the title string, is that necessary?
Edited by Lars Johansson on 18 March 2013 at 2:14pm
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Andrew W. Farago
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4079
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| Posted: 18 March 2013 at 2:29pm | IP Logged | 10
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Bottom line, if you didn't like the PEANUTS strip, why did you feel you had to mention it? Why did you feel you had to go out of your way to mention it, make an effort to mention it?
In this case, the venue had almost everything to do with it. The particular Peanuts strip I was talking about showed up on Facebook, which is a continuously updating newsfeed of photos, artwork, news, messages from friends, etc. That strip showed up in my newsfeed, I decided to comment on it since I thought it might be an interesting topic of discussion, some people chimed in, and we all moved onto some other subject pretty quickly. Stephen mentioned picking on Paul McCartney's lesser songs, and I'd say that what I did was the equivalent of catching one of those songs on the radio, telling the person next to me that I don't think it's one of his best, then changing the station. Very transitory criticism.
As for Erik's criticism page, again, I know the guy personally, so I don't see any malicious intent there, since I know him to be an affable guy in real life. Every artist I know studies other artists all the time, and the vast majority of them do the "playing god" exercise at some point. Yes, Erik doing that in a public forum instead of privately was probably a bad call, since he's calling out his fellow pros and it's bad form, but I know the guy, I've talked comics with him any number of times, so seeing him do this on his personal Facebook page didn't strike me as unusual. I work with artists all the time, so hearing guys talk shop or griping about other artists doesn't register as anything out of the ordinary to me.
As Paul Greer said, I'd really just rather have everybody get along. I'm not losing any sleep over the fact that we'll never see JB draw an issue of The Savage Dragon, and JB and Erik are two of many creators I'm not going to have in the same carpool, but there's not anything I can do about that.
Joe Zhang: I'm sorry that I ran over your dog, stole your girlfriend, beat you up at recess, drank your last beer, or whatever it is that you think I did to you in the past, but I wish you'd get over it. I'm not sure where you got the idea that every opinion I hold in comics is part of some grand scheme to get me a job in the industry, but if you're going to say stuff like that, I'd suggest at least doing a quick background check first, like what I've been doing for the past 12 years or so. So you don't come off as an uninformed yahoo in the future.
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Ronald Joseph
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 April 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 1784
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| Posted: 18 March 2013 at 2:38pm | IP Logged | 11
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As for Erik's criticism page, again, I know the guy personally, so I don't see any malicious intent there, It's OK to tell a friend, or even an acquaintance, that they're being an asshole when they're being an asshole. It's (hopefully) how we learn. Yes, Erik doing that in a public forum instead of privately was probably a bad call, since he's calling out his fellow pros If someone had posted that JB page (or any page by any creator) on Larsen's facebook/twitter/etc. and asked for his thoughts on it and he gave the same criticisms, I'd say that would be a bad call. He was being an asshole. And one of the creators he "played god with" isn't even alive to defend himself. Not that he'd have to. but I know the guy, We've heard. Great story.
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Armindo Macieira
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 October 2006
Location: Portugal
Posts: 955
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| Posted: 18 March 2013 at 3:41pm | IP Logged | 12
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I don't understand Larsen's relation to JB's work. I took a look at the original pages he owns (on his FB account) and he does have a LOT of JB's pages! I'd assume he likes JB's art (why else would you spend money on original pages?), but then he goes and does this where he seems to criticize JB's work just because he feels like it...
Multiple personality disorder?
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Topic Closed)
