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Aaron Smith
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Posted: 11 March 2013 at 12:26pm | IP Logged | 1  

The thing that bothers me about the multiple Robins is that there's really no need for more than one (leaving out of the argument the idea of one of them being Bruce Wayne's son, which is one of those ideas that is so obvious that it should have always been avoided). Why does each generation of readers need it's own Robin? Does each generation need a new Archie or Superman or Spider-Man? Tim Drake, a character that I liked very much when I was reading Batman regularly, could easily have been Dick Grayson instead. Their personalities were similar enough. As for the rebellious street kid, Jason Todd, if there had to be occasional conflict between Batman and Robin, is there any reason a Dick Grayson Robin couldn't have a rebellious moment now and then? He's a teenager! Dick Grayson should have remained the one true Robin with the character's hairstyle, clothes, use of slang on occasion, etc. simply updated with the times just as has been done with most other teenaged characters throughout the history of comics. 

Edited by Aaron Smith on 11 March 2013 at 12:27pm
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John Byrne
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Posted: 11 March 2013 at 12:30pm | IP Logged | 2  

*Granted, Dick learning to walk on a tight rope makes it believable that he'd be fighting alongside Batman within just a few months.

••

There's a female fan I used to know, many moons ago, who absolutely hated superheroines in high heels. She maintained that the kinds of moves our gals regularly make while perched atop stilettos would be a quick route to a couple of broken ankles.

In response (and this will tell you how long ago this was!) I offered the SOLID GOLD dancers, who whirled and twirled and generally cavorted while wearing heels that would probably give most people a nose bleed.

But, the female fan protested, those were all REHEARSED moves. The dancers were not jumping about spontaneously, in an uncontrolled environment (like a fight).

The same could be said of Robin, I suppose. Dick's circus background might have prepared him for the training Batman would give him, but it wouldn't result in the nearly instant turnaround.

(And this is way to much analysis of a fictional character, I grant. But we DO have to be careful. "It's comics" is an acceptable justification for somet things we do, but it's not a Get Out of Jail Free card!)

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John Byrne
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Posted: 11 March 2013 at 12:33pm | IP Logged | 3  

Multiple Robins present a problem that goes to the very core of these characters, and something that has often been visited hereabouts: TIME.

Dick Grayson went from 10 to around 18 (almost overnight), and then the years just started piling up. How many Robins have there been since Dick (O honestly don't know!), but unless their careers have been very, very short, they are really piling the years on Batman, aren't they? AND underlining the biggest traditional complaint about Robin: that it's incredibly irresponsible for Batman to take a kid "to work" with him!!

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Aaron Smith
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Posted: 11 March 2013 at 12:38pm | IP Logged | 4  

I don't understand why Batman has to go through these silly phases of having a sidekick and not having a sidekick (I realize it's because writers and fans seem to think it somehow dictates whether he's the lighter, happier Batman or the "Psycho-ninja Batman," to borrow JB's term), but what's wrong with just NOT USING ROBIN if you don't want him to appear in a particular story? Simple enough solution, isn't it? No need to age Dick out of the role and then have to replace him with Jason and then kill Jason and have cranky Batman around until Tim comes along to cheer him up. It's nonsense. Did it have to be explained why Sulu, for example, sometimes didn't appear in a particular episode of Star Trek? 
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Aaron Smith
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Posted: 11 March 2013 at 12:50pm | IP Logged | 5  

And I think the very idea of there being a "psycho-ninja Batman" demonstrates a lack of understanding of the character.

Batman is a level-headed, intelligent detective on a mission. The Psycho-ninja is what the CRIMINALS perceive because they are, after all, a cowardly, superstitious lot! That's what the reader should see the criminal seeing while understanding that Batman is creating a carefully manufactured illusion.
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 11 March 2013 at 2:45pm | IP Logged | 6  

I want the X-Men back to where they were in the late 70's-early 80's.
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Sam Karns
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Posted: 11 March 2013 at 2:46pm | IP Logged | 7  

But Robin wasn't just any ordinary kid. 

As for the multiple Robins and Batman's age dispute, it's possible the people at DC want Batman older to honor Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns.  Since that series inspired the current take on the character for close to 30 years. 

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Brian Hague
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Posted: 11 March 2013 at 5:49pm | IP Logged | 8  

Sam Karns wrote: "Why was Jason Todd so hated? He was a noble and courageous character to me."

I can think of a couple of reasons. One: He was the first "pretender to the throne." All of the objections to replacement Robins were made way back when, and have more or less come true. Once you start replacing characters, it becomes all too easy to do it again, and again... Dick Grayson had his fans, and they did not take kindly to someone else putting on the green slippers.

Two: There were two distinctly different Jason Todds. The first was a fair-haired acrobat whose parents were killed by a criminal, in this case, Killer Croc. This iteration was held by fandom at the time to be too boring and too similar to Dick. A pale copy. Once Crisis hit the "reset" button on everyone's backstory and origins, he became a street kid whom Batman caught boosting the tires off the Batmobile. This origin was generally held by vocal fans at the time to be absolutely ludicrous*. At least the other Jason Todd had acrobatic skills, the argument went. This kid's got nothing but mouth and attitude! What's that going to get him, besides dead? Every time he smarted off to Batman or went off on a personal vendetta was one more call waiting to happen on the 1-800 number that was in his future...

Myself, I kind of liked the original Jason. I enjoyed those stories and the Don Newton art at the time. I was well over the Crisis and all of the nonsense attached when the second origin rolled around. I frankly didn't much care at that point, although I did have a friend at the time who was invested in the story. Later, when Tim Drake came into the picture, she became a fan of his. She enjoyed the solo series, the background, all of it...

Every character out there truly is somebody's favorite character. Mine is Zody, the Mod Rob. Okay, no, not really... But he is on the list...

* Also, another point made was, seriously? You can boost the tires off the Batmobile? No one has ever done this before? There are no specially-engineered lugs in place or anything? You can just... take the tires off? Really? Many readers felt the writer at the time was a little too set in the world of basic kid-level mystery fiction rather than someone who knew how to write, y'know... Batman.

 

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Chad Carter
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Posted: 13 March 2013 at 3:30pm | IP Logged | 9  


"Every character out there truly is somebody's favorite character."


One of the conundrums of my personal culture is that I have favorite characters I love to pieces (as above,) and I want others to love them as well. I want others to see the potential in them that I see in them. 

But then I remember I once really loved the Thing and the Hulk, and a lot of others did as well. And then you see how far those characters have fallen, how insignificant and ill-handled they are, how off-model they are, and you realize this was perpetrated by writers/artists who also loved Thing and Hulk.

It's just not in the nature of people to do right by any character, since not every character is "their favorite." And most times, god forbid those characters are the favorite!


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Brian Hague
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Posted: 15 March 2013 at 1:58am | IP Logged | 10  

One of the most frightening "sound bites" that I know of came from Mark Waid, the editor who had participated on some level or another in two Legion reboots already, and shepherded the book through some of the most mishmashed, incomprehensible multiversal nonsense in their history.

He was apparently on a convention panel about the Legion, being bombarded with questions about the upcoming "Threeboot" version wherein he intended to start the whole rigamorale over again, (this time with jokes and a "Wild in the Streets" theme of youth in rebellion,) and he had to leave to attend another panel. As he got up, he assured the fans not to worry. "No one loves the Legion more than I do!"

Having now survived the deservedly short-lived Threeboot, such sentiments inspire dread rather than hope in my hardened heart whenever I hear them... "Fan" conceptions of characters rarely if ever capture what actually makes them tick, and almost never allow for the full spectrum to come into play. It's usually a process of removal. "This doesn't work. That never made any sense to me, so it doesn't fit..."

Such reworkings may gain their own fans, (There are probably LSH fans who swear by the Threeboot,) but the original character or concept is almost always lost, often deliberately so, in the rush to put forth what this fan thinks makes them cooler than cool... Or worse, what they've now given the character that he never had before, which will make him cooler than cool...

Then there's the opposite tack... "I have always hated so-and-so..."

Fans with grudges and crushes are far too easily and often indulged in these wacky times in which we live...

That being said, give me a Green Lantern book and I will bring back the original Stel of Grenda and mercilessly kill Dexstarr. Stel was clunky and cool, back before the "Robocop" style "reimaginings" and whatnot. And Dexstarr? Seriously. It's a feral cat from outer space with a name that sounds like an oil company. He is so dead, first chance I get...

Which is why it probably would not be a good idea to give me a Green Lantern book... Or at least not until I get some counselling... :-)

 

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Monte Gruhlke
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Posted: 15 March 2013 at 3:00am | IP Logged | 11  

I remember a time when the Joker was considered really crazy, but those times when he used his grinnin' gas you knew he was really off the rails... and that really disturbed the other super criminals who were in the game for the power or wealth. The idea that HE kept taking it too far, even for their tastes, left an impression with me.

Now most every super villain is a murderer, raking up body counts just to show how baddass they were, and new murderers were created to show the old-timers how its done. This quickly became tiring for me. THIS is what I would turn back the clock on.

That and the Cyclops (of anytime up to the end of the 80's) back when he was a real leader and contender in the M***** universe, instead of the bizarro anti-cyclops he is now. 

And the Spider-Man of the Clone War Saga - not because I thought it was a good idea, but because of the funny way it would make Matt twitch when every new issue came out.
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Matthew Wilkie
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Posted: 15 March 2013 at 3:01am | IP Logged | 12  

Alpha Flight 28.  Ideally just before the Beyonder shows up.  Marred what I still to be consider the best run on any series.

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