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Dave Phelps
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4180
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| Posted: 10 March 2013 at 7:27am | IP Logged | 1
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The Justice Society to where they were a couple of years ago. We had Alan Scott and Jay Garrick as "elder statesmen" in the DCU, Wildcat as the guy who taught half the street heroes how to fight, they were integral to the DCU rather than off to the side (while still doing their own thing), and the multi-generational line-up helped symbolize one of the things I really liked about the Post-Crisis DCU.
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Larry Gil
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 November 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 763
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| Posted: 10 March 2013 at 8:08am | IP Logged | 2
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X-men 143 for me and Carmen couldn't have said it better. After JB left the book, the stories just got ridiculous.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132644
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| Posted: 10 March 2013 at 8:10am | IP Logged | 3
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The Wolfman/Perez Era Titans.•• Case in point. As big a fan as I am and ever will be of George's art, that book is like a microcosm of everything that was going wrong with DC in specific, and comics in general. The characters were too old, and the idea of an "illusion of change" seemed alien. Wolfman at the time complained that he didn't really like calling them the TEEN Titans, and that was like an alarm going off in my head! (In all fairness, the X-Men, which were the obvious model for the "new" Teen Titans, had themselves strayed far from their roots. It was a source of frustration for me that I could do little to restore what I considered the proper status quo -- altho I did not agree with Shooter's insistence that the "most important aspect" of the book was that they were a SCHOOL. After all, Stan and Jack had "graduated" the characters way back in issue 7! I --and most others -- felt that the most important aspect of the X-Men was summed up in "feared and hated by the world they are sworn to protect". Couldn't really see Wolverine accepting five demerits and a detention for being late to "class"!!)
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132644
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| Posted: 10 March 2013 at 8:16am | IP Logged | 4
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The Justice Society to where they were a couple of years ago. We had Alan Scott and Jay Garrick as "elder statesmen" in the DCU, Wildcat as the guy who taught half the street heroes how to fight, they were integral to the DCU rather than off to the side (while still doing their own thing), and the multi-generational line-up helped symbolize one of the things I really liked about the Post-Crisis DCU.•• "Multi-generational" groups and teams, tho, tend to underscore the whole real time/aging problem. This has been so ever since "The Flash of Two Worlds". Once the "older" Jay Garrick was brought into the mix -- and keep in mind, doing the math he would have been all of 40!! -- there were those who locked onto him as "proof" real time passed in comics. The real craziness, of course, lay in the contrivances then introduced to "explain" why characters tied to immovable historical events (like WW2) were not seen to be aging. And once some of those characters got folded (often sloppily) into the "real" timeline, it got even more ridiculous. Think Black Canary!
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Glen Keith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 July 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 851
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| Posted: 10 March 2013 at 8:17am | IP Logged | 5
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While it's not playing the game correctly, I'd like to see the entire Marvel Universe reset to what it was Stan stopped writing it.
And I'd just as soon DC be reset to the golden age.
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Kevin Brown
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 May 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 8862
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| Posted: 10 March 2013 at 10:07am | IP Logged | 6
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The Legion of Super-Heroes back to right before the Great Darkness saga. The "Five Years Later" crap really started its downfall. It ruined everything I loved about the Legion and made the title & characters unreadable to me. And it's STILL trying to overcome that massive mistake all these years later, though the Waid/Kitson "threeboot" series (which is when I returned to reading it) nearly reversed everythng that was bad. The current series, after all the years of discord, just cannot recapture any of that magic, even though there have been bit & pieces of it.
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Chad Carter
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 June 2005
Posts: 9584
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| Posted: 10 March 2013 at 9:40pm | IP Logged | 7
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I'd just like to say that the "Death of the Doom Patrol" is and should be an integral part of DC history. It was a core concept of heroism that I was introduced to, by the after-mentioned NEW TEEN TITANS. No matter what contrivance led to the death of the team, the impact was real. And in those halcyon days, the deaths meant something.
And as a young teen I dug it; Rita, the Chief and Larry died, Robotman survived. Tragically. Robotman became my favorite character because of the DP's sacrifice. I saw it as if the Fantastic Four were wiped out, save for Ben Grimm. And truth to tell, Robotman and The Thing are my beloved of the two teams. Any team with those two in it can survive.
Obviously the Doom Patrol has never, since their 1960s heyday, kept a book on the racks very long. Not unless it was being written by a "genius" superstar. Recently, the DP had a wonderful but somewhat uneven John Byrne revival, and the Keith Giffen atrocity. JB jettisoned all the DP history, Giffen slavishly invited every iteration of it. Both approaches had faults.
Now, NEW TEEN TITANS was a great superhero comic, and one of the worst for their popularity, as I've stated in the past. I'd like to say here, Marv Wolfman layered his uber-popular series with the Doom Patrol's death. He gave his knockoff heroes their own histories, dramatic and tragic. Some of that popularity belonged to the Doom Patrol, their echo of sacrifice which gave the Teen Titans an unnerving quality--you weren'treally sure a Titan wouldn't die, as the DP had died. That was an important subliminal aspect to that comic, one shared by the X-Men; mortality and melodrama became massive sellers.
And I didn't care very much about Gar Logan's part in avenging the Doom Patrol, since he was irritating on every level, but I'd gladly take the green kid for a chance to keep the Doom Patrol's sacrifice intact.
So, I'd reset the Doom Patrol to AFTER the Death issue, with Gar Logan a few years older and non-douchey. I mean, he can have a Spider-Man mouth on him, but he doesn't have to be a massive creep.
The NEW Doom Patrol involves Robotman reappearing "from the dead" with nothing but revenge on his mind, as well as the new Negative Woman, who is a mystery. And yes, I'd be taking on Paul Kupperberg's Negative Woman gender change, only because it makes the character more tragic, knowing a beautiful woman is hidden beneath bandages.
And Mento becomes the DP's mortal enemy, since they "caused" his wife Rita's demise. And because I hate Mento.
Also, Jack Kirby's "Angry Charlie" is the DP's "pet." Because anyone who doesn't love Angry Charlie just doesn't have a soul.  |
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Mike Norris
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4274
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| Posted: 10 March 2013 at 11:06pm | IP Logged | 8
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Take all the "good" parts from the other Robins, transfer them to Dick Grayson and reset him to being "the Boy Wonder". Reset Roy, Garth, Donna and Wally too.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132644
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| Posted: 11 March 2013 at 5:31am | IP Logged | 9
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Take all the "good" parts from the other Robins…•• Put six fans in a room, and get seven opinions on which were the "good parts" of Robin!
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Lars Johansson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 June 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6113
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| Posted: 11 March 2013 at 6:27am | IP Logged | 10
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I don't think, and please delete if it's a stupid comment, but then which of my comments isn't, but I don't think designing a story is like placing out furniture in a room. We want a Robin and he should be like this, we want a Batman who should be like this. Except when he is mad he should be like that. That could be alrigt if you design a room or shelf with action figures but in a comic book, no.
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 11 March 2013 at 12:15pm | IP Logged | 11
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Take all the "good" parts from the other Robins…
••
Put six fans in a room, and get seven opinions on which were the "good parts" of Robin!
***
SER: Quite true. I will say that I liked how the Timm Batman cartoon gave Tim Drake Jason Todd's (second) origin. It distinguished Drake from Grayson, and I liked how Batman essentially intervenes early and prevents Drake from growing up to become the very type of criminal he faced on a nightly basis.
The comics, though, ruined the redemption aspect of the origin by making Jason a "bad seed" and ultimately a lost cause.
As I think there should be only *1* Robin (de-uniquing, anyone?), if I were to reboot Batman, I'd give Dick Grayson the street kid origin. There's an argument to be made that the acrobat* origin is window dressing and somewhat dates the character.
*Granted, Dick learning to walk on a tight rope makes it believable that he'd be fighting alongside Batman within just a few months.
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Sam Karns
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7624
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| Posted: 11 March 2013 at 12:25pm | IP Logged | 12
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Why was Jason Todd so hated? He was a noble and courageous character to me.
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Topic Closed)
