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Topic: Robin Dies Horribly...Who Cares? (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 07 March 2013 at 6:34pm | IP Logged | 1  

And aging doesn't seem to hurt TV characters like Ben 10. He's now 
in his third age bracket. (First 10, then mid-teens, now he is out of 
HS.)

-----

The original incarnation of BEN 10 was a more lighthearted, younger skewing show that took place during an "endless summer vacation." The later BEN 10 series were essentially different shows, with season long story arcs and more complex characterizations. I wouldn't call this a success of aging as much as a revamp of the show and the character. And while he has aged in the later series, he remains (and behaves like) a teen. 

Not to mention in this series they try to have it both ways with parallel stories between the older present-day Ben and untold stories from when he was a kid. 
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Kip Lewis
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Posted: 07 March 2013 at 6:52pm | IP Logged | 2  

Never understood this argument of comparing super-hero genre to
the comedy genre. Saying Stewie doesn't age, so neither should Peter
is like saying, there should be fairy tale monsters on Hawaii 5-0,
because they have them on Grimm. They're both on TV and both
involve the police so why not? Because Grimm is a fantasy action
adventure and H50 is "real world" police action adventure.

Saying Robin didn't age for over 30 years is a valid comparison to
Spider-Man. Archie and Bart are not.
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Chad Carter
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Posted: 07 March 2013 at 7:59pm | IP Logged | 3  



About characters aging in comics: even as a ten year old kid, and even as much as I loved FANTASTIC FOUR when this issue came out:



I had a moment of confusion with Marv Wolfman's resolution.

Namely, the FF, at the end of the Sphinx/Galactus epic, are returned to vitality after what seems like death claimed them.

All the members are, if I recall correctly, not only more powerful than they were before, but "younger" as well. 

Essentially, they are given a physical reboot, in order to explain the passage of time (as Ben and Reed both served in WW 2.) As a 10-yr old, I just hadn't thought about it. This was also within a year of Reed Richards, who had lost his powers prior to issue 200, regaining those powers and also having them strengthened. So Reed, by ish 215, is twice as powerful and half as younger.

Again, I didn't see the need for it. As a kid, it never occurred to me to wonder why Reed and Ben weren't middle-aged in 1979; I could clearly see, by their character, both were grown men. The age thing wasn't specific. I knew they were adults, Sue a bit younger, and Johnny (also subtly aging) now a college student. 

But in all, they were older than myself, indicative of what lay "ahead" of me in my life. Fictional though they were, the Fantastic Four were preparing me, educating me, on what it was to be an adult. The responsibility, the problems, each character has reflects their age bracket; I assumed I would experience a real-world version of the FF's problems, while at the same time, having the education provided by these characters--moral and ethical--to make choices and deal with life.

This was inherent in the superhero stories. Superheroes are referred to as "male empowerment fantasies"--and such they are in this hubris-infected culture--but the characters I encountered were teachers and instructors, lessons provided by men and women who created the comics, of whom I was only beginning to become aware. 

The idea was, superhero comics were designed to prepare kids to grow up, while still enforcing their imaginative lives and allowing them to find outlets for their dreams. These kids, like myself, would never swing around a city like Spider-Man, but we would, perhaps, act to save a real human being trapped in a burning building. 

Until superheroes are returned to that status, of being representative of the ideals of courage and responsibility every child needs to learn, they'll remain empty carcasses, to be filled with the sexual preoccupation and petty superficial viewpoints of comic creators who have never grown up. Peter Pans all, in graphic t-shirts and ball caps hardly removed from their parent-paid college tuition, still arguing over whether Black Widow is "hotter" than Scarlet Witch. Marvel and DC Comics as corporate daycare for spastic children. 

The problem isn't the comics, or their timelines or continuity; the problem is the creators of the superheroes refusing to acknowledge the hard truths of the world. And the first real truth? 

Let go of juvenile superhero worship, so you (as a realized adult) can actually write about superheroes the way they're supposed to be written!
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 07 March 2013 at 8:09pm | IP Logged | 4  

If an entertainment property is good, then we want it to continue, right?
Barring, of course, movies and books and such that have definitive
endings as an inherent part of their stories.

Live-action TV is limited by aging actors. If aging weren't a factor, then
we'd surely still be watching the original STAR TREK cast playing their
roles, since those characters have proven to be evergreen.

But, since the actors have aged--and died--a reboot with young actors
was deemed necessary to keep the characters going in live-action
form.


Animation is more limited, but voice-actors can still be replaced, and
the characters need not age. Look at Scooby-Doo or The Simpsons.


Comics have no excuse. There are no age considerations. Superman
can be 29 years old forever, and thrill readers in 1938, 1988, and 2038.


And, why NOT?


Start tugging at the threads of time, and the whole thing falls apart.

Just as an 81-year-old Captain Kirk is not perceived as a viable
character in 2013, so is a 75-year-old Superman. What kid would want
to read about a 40- or 50-year-old Superman?

But, a 40- or 50-year-old reader, on the other hand...


And that's the problem. Comics written by old people for old people
who refuse to either grow up, or accept the conceits of the medium,
and who are taking beloved characters as they have been away from
future generations.
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Tim O Neill
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Posted: 07 March 2013 at 8:22pm | IP Logged | 5  


There's no question in my mind that characters in comic books should stay the same age.  Anything aimed at kids as the primary audience should not concern itself with real time progression.  Especially when you are looking to turn over the audience every five to ten years.  "Doonesbury" works because the target age is everyone with a particular appeal to older readers, so I like seeing them get older.

While it was a mistake for Marvel to age Peter Parker, they stumbled on the perfect range for the character.  Being in college is a great place for the character - depending on his grades/academic success mixed with the usual Parker bad luck, he could be anywhere in his twenties and stay stuck forever.



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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 07 March 2013 at 9:12pm | IP Logged | 6  

I can accept a college-aged Peter Parker, particularly one who's still a teen,
but he should be a high schooler. The Human Torch, Angel, Beast,
Cyclops, Iceman, Marvel Girl, Aqualad, Kid Flash, Robin and Wonder Girl
should all be teenagers as well.
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Eric Smearman
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Posted: 07 March 2013 at 9:22pm | IP Logged | 7  

Agreed. As much as I've loved Nightwing, aging Dick Grayson to
adulthood seems to have cost at least as much as it might have gained.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 07 March 2013 at 11:07pm | IP Logged | 8  

Never understood this argument of comparing super-hero genre to 
the comedy genre. Saying Stewie doesn't age, so neither should Peter
is like saying, there should be fairy tale monsters on Hawaii 5-0, 
because they have them on Grimm. They're both on TV and both 
involve the police so why not? Because Grimm is a fantasy action 
adventure and H50 is "real world" police action adventure. 

Saying Robin didn't age for over 30 years is a valid comparison to 
Spider-Man. Archie and Bart are not.


----

This argument is nonsensical on several levels. Aging is not an inherent part of the superhero genre, and non-aging is not an inherent part of the comedy genre. So why are comparisons invalid? Is Bond a comedy because people can accept that the character played by Connery through Brosnan are the same person and remains roughly around the same age?
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Lars Johansson
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Posted: 08 March 2013 at 12:57am | IP Logged | 9  

Aging DC heroes all sport a Fidel Castro beard.
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Lars Johansson
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Posted: 08 March 2013 at 1:00am | IP Logged | 10  

The real Fidel Castro doesn't age either, he's still around isn't he?
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 08 March 2013 at 1:09am | IP Logged | 11  

Aging superheroes seems to bring about the need for things like reboots when the heroes get too old. The new DC 52 was all about getting their characters young again without all that continuity bogging them down. Even though they tried to keep all the continuity anyway in the case of Batman and Green Lantern, which only made things more confusing because did Bruce Wayne really need all those Robins in 5 years time?  Marvel did the same thing with Spider-Man to get him young again with Brand New Day. I think the last reboot I actually enjoyed was Man of Steel and maybe I was just the right age for it. It certainly was drawn really well.

Didn't the original Valiant universe happen in real time? It's been a few years since I read those books but it seems like they did. New Universe tried the same trick as well. (Apparently Shooter was a fan of the concept since those were both his babies.)

Edited by Shane Matlock on 08 March 2013 at 1:10am
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DW Zomberg
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Posted: 08 March 2013 at 8:37am | IP Logged | 12  

Aging characters were more successful.

Is that why Marvel and DC sell only a pittance of the comics they did twenty/thirty/forty years ago? You mention Archie's timeless characters struggling financially while pretending that the Big Two are somehow in great shape when they've been stuck in the ICU for years now.

Amazing Spider-Man's sales didn't jump when Peter Parker graduated to college--the upswing came when Romita took over. Fair or not, his artwork was more appealing to readers. Peter Parker went from being a skinny bookworm that most fans could relate to, to being a hunk who drove a motorcycle, had a bachelor pad, and was chased by two of the hottest women in comics, a guy most fans wanted to be.

This is the hypocrisy of the change and growth crowd. They demand that teenage characters age to a certain arbitrary point, and THEN they should stop getting older.

The Archie and Bart Simpson comparisons are entirely apt--we're talking about fictional characters. The very mediums they inhabit pretty much allow them to remain timeless. Thinking "it's about time" Peter Parker graduated from college is nothing but fan-think selfishness.

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