Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 11 Next >>
Topic: Robin Dies Horribly...Who Cares? (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Jesus Garcia
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 April 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 2414
Posted: 07 March 2013 at 1:44pm | IP Logged | 1  

I'm expecting a forthcoming iteration to involve Bruce becoming Robin and Dick becoming Batman, with Alfred becoming Oracle.
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133274
Posted: 07 March 2013 at 1:53pm | IP Logged | 2  

knuckleheads once, and the issue of teenage characters growing older came up. His reply was, "What? They should stay the same age forever? Like Archie?"

Such a simple concept, yet completely beyond the grasp of these types of fans.

••

"No sense of history" is a charge I have leveled at many a fan, and many a pro, over the years. "Like Archie" indicates a failure to grasp that Archie is ageless* precisely because those books follow (or followed) the basic model. It started in the newspaper strips, where the characters were similarly ageless (and often timeless). Of course, the rot has snuck in there, too. I remember when DICK TRACY celebrated its 50th Anniversary by having Dick celebrate his 50th birthday. Foolish on many levels, since it did not reflect "real time" (Tracy was not born in the first strip!), and did not accomplish anything other than making the character "old". Of course, "Junior" had long since preceded him down that path.

Marvel was really the first to seriously break with "tradition", as Peter Parker (to name but one) grew older as the years went by. Not quite real time, but enough to prompt Roger Stern to note that in Marvel books the first couple of years seemed to happen in real time, then the brakes went on. Of course, this was not a hard and fast rule, and as more fans-turned-pro came in, traditions began faltering more and more. Eventually the Question of just how long the "Marvel Universe"** had been around prompted the invention of "Marvel Time", setting the launch of the FF's rocket at seven years ago, with the intention that it would REMAIN "seven years ago". But it didn't take long for people to start "doing the math". "Well, if it was seven years ten years ago, it must be, like, nine years by now…" The point that the seven years was "elastic", and did not need years added to it was completely missed.

–––––––

* Archie DID age, in fact. He was sub-teen when the character first appeared. But the brakes were applied very early on!

** I die a little inside every time I type that phrase. The "Marvel Universe" is supposed to be OUR universe. The adventures take place HERE, not in some "parallel reality".

Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133274
Posted: 07 March 2013 at 1:55pm | IP Logged | 3  

After looking at my portfolio, I mentioned to him that I thought a lot current creators were going in bad directions. My portfolio was my chance to write and draw certain characters the way I thought they should be done. His advice to me was, my thoughts are irrelevant. Writing and drawing a four page story that has an early 70's to mid 80's style makes IT irrelevant. If I wanted to work for the Big Two today, I had to create the story as they would today. I don't have to agree with it but, if I want the job, I do it there way.

••

I sometimes find myself envying those who can think that way. I can't.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
Posted: 07 March 2013 at 1:59pm | IP Logged | 4  

As I've said before, it's a fragile house of cards. All I see now are stunts
and oh-so-clever rockstar creators having their way with the characters.

If they're ALL imaginary stories, they why should we care? Suspension
of disbelief is a fragile thing. Even when aware of the backstage
personalities and politics of older stories, I still get sucked in, because
those older stories--and creators--played by the rules. The stories
fulfilled their genre expectations.

Now, anything goes.

How can a reader play the game if the creators don't play by the rules?
You can only have the rug pulled out from under you so many times
before you get sick of slamming onto the floor, after all.

Edited by Greg Kirkman on 07 March 2013 at 2:04pm
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
Posted: 07 March 2013 at 2:40pm | IP Logged | 5  

Thing, too, was that DC didn't WANT their characters to be "too old", so they started pushing in "legacy" characters -- younger people who would take on the roles of Green Lantern, Green Arrow, the Flash, etc --- none of the originals needing to be "too old" if DC had just stuck to that most basic of all comicbook conventions: THE STORIES ALL HAPPEN "NOW", THE CHARACTERS DO NOT AGE.

How stupid do you have to be not to GET that?

***

I agree.

Thing is, I don't see the same mentality 'infecting' other franchises. I've never heard a James Bond fan ask why he hasn't aged; no Sherlock Holmes fan I've spoken to seems bothered by the timeline in the Basil Rathbone films (in one movie, Holmes and Watson are active during WWII); and in newspaper strips over here like THE PERISHERS and ANDY CAPP, I don't ever recall hearing anyone complain about ageing. It seems only comic fans have that mentality.

To me, every adventure takes place NOW. I don't care that Dennis the Menace and Gnasher have been in comics since 1951, they will always remain young to me - and so they should. I have no desire to see an adult Dennis the Menace, I never sit and wonder, "Hmmm, when is he going to enter college or university?"

You know, I often think of the magician's tricks analogy. I've seen a few magicians over time and I buy into the magic. However, the day people start questioning how the tricks are done and wondering how the magician can do this and that, it's time to leave and find another hobby; I feel that those analyzing comic characters ages should do the same.

On a final note, I agree that Alan Moore's comment was condescending. In a way, the demise of "imaginary stories" is one of the problems with many today's comics. Years ago, a lot of the stuff that is now mainstream would have been an "imaginary tale". Or, in the case of Marvel, they had those WHAT IF? books. Nowadays, everything and anything can happen.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Aaron Smith
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 06 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 10461
Posted: 07 March 2013 at 2:52pm | IP Logged | 6  

I got into a debate with one of the more strident pro-Spider-marriage knuckleheads once, and the issue of teenage characters growing older came up. His reply was, "What? They should stay the same age forever? Like Archie?"

Such a simple concept, yet completely beyond the grasp of these types of fans.

***

A year or two ago, the owner of my LCS had some friends and customers over for coffee. I got into a conversation with a young man of maybe 20 and started to voice my opinions about some of the things I saw wrong with the way comics are today, including my feeling that if you can't accept the serial nature of comics and the fact that a status quo shouldn't have to change to accommodate aging readers and characters who are intended to continue for many years shouldn't age. He didn't quite seem to get what I was saying until I asked him who his favorite character was. He told me it was Green Lantern (Hal Jordan). I pointed out that if Hal had started aging from the beginning of his existence, he'd have aged out of activity long before that particular fan got to read his adventures. "Don't you want to be able to introduce your kids to your favorite character if you ever have any?" I asked him. He got my point then.  


Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
Posted: 07 March 2013 at 2:58pm | IP Logged | 7  

I got into a conversation with a young man of maybe 20 and started to voice my opinions about some of the things I saw wrong with the way comics are today, including my feeling that if you can't accept the serial nature of comics and the fact that a status quo shouldn't have to change to accommodate aging readers and characters who are intended to continue for many years shouldn't age.

***

It's incredibly selfish for anyone to expect the character to age in order to match their own ageing/development. A mentality like that means the person expects the entire universe to revolve around them!
Back to Top profile | search
 
Aaron Smith
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 06 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 10461
Posted: 07 March 2013 at 4:00pm | IP Logged | 8  

Thing is, I don't see the same mentality 'infecting' other franchises. I've never heard a James Bond fan ask why he hasn't aged; no Sherlock Holmes fan I've spoken to seems bothered by the timeline in the Basil Rathbone films (in one movie, Holmes and Watson are active during WWII); and in newspaper strips over here like THE PERISHERS and ANDY CAPP, I don't ever recall hearing anyone complain about ageing. It seems only comic fans have that mentality.

***

I think it's a bad idea, in most cases, to mention a serialized character's age. I'd much rather see characters portrayed as having what I like to call "archetypal ages."

For example, in superhero comics you tend to see heroes on the border between teens and early adulthood (Spider-Man, the Human Torch), heroes who are old enough to have careers but young enough to be athletically in their primes (Daredevil, Barry Allen, Hal Jordan, etc...most superheroes, I guess), the older more experienced type with graying temples and professions that seem to call for an older character (Dr. Strange, Reed Richards).

In his Bond novels, I only recall Ian Fleming mentioning Bond's age once (he was 37 in MOONRAKER). When I think of Bond, he's somewhere in that "experienced but not old" range of, say, 35 to 50, so that I was never in the least bit bothered by him going from a late 30s Connery to a 30ish Lazenby to a 45-year-old Roger Moore and then back into his early 40s when Dalton came along (although I'll admit that Moore did look too old in his last few movies, but he was pushing 60!) 
Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
Carmen Bernardo
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 August 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 3666
Posted: 07 March 2013 at 4:25pm | IP Logged | 9  

   The comments about Neal Adams and Batman: Odessey have me considering something which could be said about his situation.  Neal is a comics professional.  If he goes to DC or Marvel and pitches something for them to publish that the bosses approve of, he still has to work within the rules that they've set up there.  If the boss calls for blood and guts, Neal will give them blood and guts.  It's not unlike how John Byrne had to act back in the day when he got hired to work for Marvel.

   Today, Byrne has enough clout to take charge of his own destiny in the industry (such as he sees it), and so chooses not to work for the Big Two.  Instead, he plays in the little pond we call "IDW", and does a bang-up job of it.

   Neal Adams has chosen to dip his toes in the ponds at DC and Marvel once more, and goes along with the rules that Dan DiDio and Joe Quesada have tacked up on the bulletin boards there.  I hold nothing against him for doing it (at least at DC, where his Batman maxi seemed separate enough from what was being done on the main titles to seem like an "imaginary story").

Back to Top profile | search
 
Kip Lewis
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 March 2011
Posts: 2880
Posted: 07 March 2013 at 5:22pm | IP Logged | 10  

You know, I often think of the magician's tricks analogy. I've seen a
few magicians over time and I buy into the magic. However, the day
people start questioning how the tricks are done and wondering how
the magician can do this and that, it's time to leave and find another
hobby; I feel that those analyzing comic characters ages should do the
same.
--------------

That does work both ways with this topic of Batman and Robins. You
shouldn't be analyzing Batman's age in relation to how many Robins
he had.

I think the problem partly comes from the fact that while DC
characters were created to be timeless, Marvel characters were
designed to age. Peter Parker aged in the 60s which some believe is
best era at Marvel. (You can't say aging characters wasn't part of the
reason for Marvel's rise. It was part of the mix.) I got into comics
when the aging slowed down, but still remember seeing on the spin
rack an issue of Spider-man graduating from college thinking, "It's
about time." To my 5th grade or 6th grade mind, I expected these
guys to age.

Yes, it means they "get old". Fine, embrace it or let's have reboots. Either way works.

And for those who compare this with Archie; last I read they are in
trouble financially now. And considering that Archie is the last of an
entire genre, the argument that not aging is important would hold
more weight if more comics that used that formula survived. One line
out of how many survived? Aging characters were more sucessful.

Edited by Kip Lewis on 07 March 2013 at 5:25pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Kip Lewis
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 March 2011
Posts: 2880
Posted: 07 March 2013 at 5:33pm | IP Logged | 11  

And aging doesn't seem to hurt TV characters like Ben 10. He's now
in his third age bracket. (First 10, then mid-teens, now he is out of
HS.)

Not that '"not aging" has hurt other series, but both can work if the
stories are good.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Lars Sandmark
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 October 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 3144
Posted: 07 March 2013 at 5:48pm | IP Logged | 12  

Bart Simpson hasn't aged, neither has Stewie Griffin, but none of the mini-brains have complained about that as far as I know.
Back to Top profile | search
 

<< Prev Page of 11 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login