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Topic: Robin Dies Horribly...Who Cares? (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Brian Floyd
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Joined: 07 July 2006
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Posted: 06 March 2013 at 9:21pm | IP Logged | 1  

Frankly I wouldn't be upset if DC did away with Robin
altogether. The character was created to be Batman's
sidekick and to lighten up the tone of the stories.

There is kind of no point to actually having a Robin
around, with the stories having gone dark and Robin not
being Batman's partner on a constant basis.

I've also read that at some point Damian was retconned to
be Bruce and Talia's biological child, and not one
created in a lab. And that he was killed by an
artificially aged clone of himself that was sent by Talia
to kill him. Ugh.

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Aaron Smith
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Posted: 06 March 2013 at 9:32pm | IP Logged | 2  

There is kind of no point to actually having a Robin
around, with the stories having gone dark and Robin not
being Batman's partner on a constant basis.

***

I think this is one of the problems brought on by too much attention to continuity and everything in the "universe" having to be tied together and fans paying attention to characters aging and time passing. I can enjoy Batman stories that are lighter or darker (but I have no interest in anything as gory and pathetic as what DC's done lately) and I like Batman solo or with Robin. It makes me wish we were still in an era in comics where Robin could be in a story or not in a story without readers needing to know why he's not there or where he is or have to see everything tied together so they can put together pieces of a puzzle that shouldn't even exist.

It bothers me that Batman even has to go through these phases of light or dark. The character, properly portrayed, can fit into both style of stories without the basic circumstances of his life changing. Whatever happened to a variety of differently-toned stories being told while characters remained the same. It used to be done like that often, in comics, on TV, etc. Hawaii Five-O just crossed my mind and I think it's a perfect example. That show (the 60s and 70s version; I haven't seen the new series) could easily switch from a dark, tragic serial killer story one episode to a lighthearted caper story the next, but Steve McGarrett's personality was constant. I don't see why Batman can't be like that.

Sorry for the rant. It wasn't directed at you, Brian. Your post just got me going.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 06 March 2013 at 10:46pm | IP Logged | 3  

Just want say that I'm currently reading the Golden Age Batman
stories, which feature Bruce and Dick fighting crime and sharing an
ideal father-son relationship.

Just last night, I read a story (from BATMAN # 5) where Batman,
thinking Robin dead, went wild on the criminals responible and was
shot no less than three times in the process, all without missing a beat.
I found myself very engaged by that sequence. Indeed, I'm immensely
enjoying those old stories, with their charm, fun, and heroism.

Flash-forward to now, with Batman's own son--who is apparently a
killer, himself, right?--being brutally murdered.

How can things have gone so very, very wrong?
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Bob Simko
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Posted: 06 March 2013 at 11:48pm | IP Logged | 4  

They are providing what the current audience wants. The people buying the books are looking for this type of story/character. Follow the money.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 06 March 2013 at 11:54pm | IP Logged | 5  

I agree with the question of how can Batman continue after his son is killed like this. The other question is how can the other heroes in the DCU, especially Dick Grayson, sit by and let him continue the course of action he is on? There will obviously be another Robin. How could Dick and Superman let Bruce recruit another kid when he has a trail of dead sidekicks? It simply makes no sense.
---------------

Maybe this is the modern version of when you start asking how can glasses be an effective disguise, it means it is time to move on. For modern comics, if you ask these questions, it is time to move on, otherwise just accept it as an aspect of serial stories in the modern era.

------

Sure, if you accept that the DC Universe heroes are assholes who purposely lead children to their deaths as a genre convention. In that case, it's exactly like glasses being a disguise. Not sure why anyone would want to read about that though.
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John Byrne
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Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 07 March 2013 at 6:13am | IP Logged | 6  

If I may rant for a moment…

As I have mentioned on many an occasion, this cover was on the first issue of BATMAN I bought. The story it reflects is "imaginary", with an ancient Batman waking in a future world where, as the cumbersome copy tells us, Dick Grayson has taken over as Batman, and Bruce Wayne Jr has become Robin.

The story represented something all we fans "knew" would happen some day -- that Batman would retire, and Robin, having trained almost all his life to do so, would inherit the Bat-suit. Thing is, the people producing the comics, the writers, artists, editors, also "knew" this -- but they knew something even MORE important. They knew it was NEVER REALLY GOING TO HAPPEN. There could be scores of speculative, "imaginary" stories (I went down that road in GENERATIONS), but the most essential convention of comics was that time was immutable. It would always be "now", so Batman would not age, Robin would not age, and, significantly, the audience would turn over every five years or so, so they would not notice that the characters were not aging. And those who stuck around long enough to notice belonged to the fringe, not the target audience.

Unfortunately, slowly and seemingly inexorably, this changed. As the market shrank, and the fringe moved closer to the center, as more and more fans turned pro, as more and more of the "old guard" left, "realism" began to seep into the books/stories. And one of the elements of that "realism" was that the characters started aging. SOME of them. The realism didn't extend to any kind of logic in this process. Dick Grayson could essentially leap from 12 to college age, but that jump did not have a noticeable impact on Bruce Wayne. Nor was Bruce seemingly impacted as Dick went on to get even older, and become NightWing. Dick's contemporaries in the "Teen" Titans aged as he did. Oliver Queen aged. Hal Jordan aged. But Bruce didn't. And none of the supporting cast in any of the books seemed to age, either. Lois remained the same. Alfred didn't show his years.

Some fans started trying different arguments to get around this. Bruce, they declared, was eighteen when he became Batman, and 21 when he adopted Dick. This was not supported by what we'd seen in decades worth of the comics, but it is often amazing how some fans will leap to abandon their precious "continuity" when it serves them to do so. (Think Magneto!) So if Bruce was 21 when Dick became Robin, he only needed to be around 30 when Dick became NightWing.

Unfortunately, even this dubious math didn't last long, as DC kept piling on the characters who aged, got killed, were replaced -- and the latter by characters who themselves aged. I created a 14 year old Wonder Girl in WONDER WOMAN. I had not let go of the title for more than ten minutes, it seemed, before she was 18 or more. When I was working on WONDER WOMAN I tried to figure out some of the math, and asked how old DIck Grayson was supposed to be. I was told NightWing was 26. Which made all this contemporary "Teen" Titans a like age -- and made Bruce Wayne SIXTEEN YEARS OLDER than he'd been when he adopted Dick. So even if Bruce was 21 then, he was "now" 37. And Wonder Girl's leap in years made him over 40.

Thing, too, was that DC didn't WANT their characters to be "too old", so they started pushing in "legacy" characters -- younger people who would take on the roles of Green Lantern, Green Arrow, the Flash, etc --- none of the originals needing to be "too old" if DC had just stuck to that most basic of all comicbook conventions: THE STORIES ALL HAPPEN "NOW", THE CHARACTERS DO NOT AGE.

How stupid do you have to be not to GET that?

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Petter Myhr Ness
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Posted: 07 March 2013 at 6:40am | IP Logged | 7  

Was part of this battle lost when imaginary stories, as we knew them, ceased to be? They become "elseworlds" or, worse, actual stories happening in a designated universe.

In an imaginary story you could have Dick Grayson as Batman, a Robin that was actually Bruce's biological son or a Superman that grew up on Krypton, and you could have fun with that idea for an issue or two without ever upsetting continuity. Instead today, you have to build up a storyline that kills Batman, have Dick replace him for a year or so, before inevitably having Bruce return. It all seems rather pointless, compared to the simple genius of the imaginary story. Why did we lose that?
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John Byrne
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Posted: 07 March 2013 at 6:46am | IP Logged | 8  

Was part of this battle lost when imaginary stories, as we knew them, ceased to be? They become "elseworlds" or, worse, actual stories happening in a designated universe.

••

A death knell was sounded for superhero comics as they were meant to be, when DC published Alan Moore's condescending "but aren't they all?" comment in reference to "imaginary stories".

One of the most important elements inherent in reading superhero comics was that we BELIEVED. Not to the point of delusion, sure. Not to the point that we actually thought Superman was real (altho when I was 12 and Stan and Jack actually appeared in an issue of FANTASTIC FOUR, there was a moment. . . ) But to the point that we emersed ourselves in the stories, and didn't think "Well, Superman can't die in this story, because they have to publish another issue next month!"

We BELIEVED, we CARED, and we UNDERSTOOD that when an "imaginary story" was published, it represented something DIFFERENT, something SPECIAL.

And we most certainly did not think "But aren't they ALL?"

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DW Zomberg
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Posted: 07 March 2013 at 8:25am | IP Logged | 9  

I got into a debate with one of the more strident pro-Spider-marriage knuckleheads once, and the issue of teenage characters growing older came up. His reply was, "What? They should stay the same age forever? Like Archie?"

Such a simple concept, yet completely beyond the grasp of these types of fans.

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Greg Woronchak
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Posted: 07 March 2013 at 8:49am | IP Logged | 10  

if DC had just stuck to that most basic of all comicbook conventions:

I think comic conventions are like waving a red flag at a bull; creators just can't wait to stomp all over them to prove 'something' (exactly what, I'm not quite sure).

The cool things about comics (timelessness, heroic ideals) have been replaced with 'change' and 'realism', praised by the bleating 'reviewers' and the guys running the Big Two.

At least Grant killed off a character he himself 'created', trying to end his run with some kind of closure (I'm guessing).


Edited by Greg Woronchak on 07 March 2013 at 8:49am
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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 07 March 2013 at 1:25pm | IP Logged | 11  

Maybe this is the modern version of when you start asking how can glasses be an effective disguise, it means it is time to move on. For modern comics, if you ask these questions, it is time to move on, otherwise just accept it as an aspect of serial stories in the modern era.

*********

SER: There is a difference between genre conventions (e.g. secret identities and flashy costumes) and poor characterization.

There was always *true* emotion in superhero comics. If a character died or was thought dead, our hero mourned. (It was a later sign of trouble when in an issue of HULK, characters laughed off Nick Fury's death because he'd "died so many times before." Thus, the inability to accept a genre convention became a reason to ignore legitimate emotion and characterization.)

I think the problem is that many creators and fans can't separate the genre conventions from realistic characterization. Batman wears tights and fights crime. He's crazy! So, why would he react sanely to the death of his son in battle?
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Jason Czeskleba
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Joined: 30 April 2004
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Posted: 07 March 2013 at 1:28pm | IP Logged | 12  

 Stephen Churay wrote:
After looking at my portfolio, I mentioned to him that I thought a lot current creators were going in bad directions. My portfolio was my chance to write and draw certain characters the way I thought they should be done. His advice to me was, my thoughts are irrelevant. Writing and drawing a four page story that has an early 70's to mid 80's style makes IT irrelevant. If I wanted to work for the Big Two today, I had to create the story as they would today. I don't have to agree with it but, if I want the job, I do it there way.


That advice makes sense for someone trying to break into comics, or even for a veteran creator struggling to get work.  I'm surprised Adams would take that view regarding his own work, though.  I would think that he would still have enough clout that he could do a story the way he wanted, or that he wouldn't do a story if he felt he had to compromise his work substantially.  But it sounds like he's saying that he tailored Odyssey to a modern sensibility because he felt like he had no choice.

At any rate, Batman Odyssey is kind of the equivalent of a rap album by Paul McCartney.


Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 07 March 2013 at 1:29pm
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