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Topic: American Atheists should Come Out of the Closet ! (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 10:36am | IP Logged | 1  

The whole POINT of the Messiah, in fact, is that he would drive that authority out of the occupied lands, his victory to be complete and total.

***

Ben Gurion!

Well, close enough....
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Chris Blaise
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 11:01am | IP Logged | 2  

In America, athiests are distrusted as much as rapists.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2011-12-1 0/religion-atheism/51777612/1
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Marcel Chenier
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 11:08am | IP Logged | 3  

I used to be what most would call a very spiritual person.

That was some time ago.  When I opened up as an athiest, the response from friends ran the gamut from "you're too extreme" to "you've hit a new low".

Those that didn't say anything either didn't care, or were probably in agreement with where I was now coming from.  It took me a long time to admit to myself that I was an athiest.  Therefore, I don't like it when the non-religious declare themselves agnostic and face criticism for it from the athiest community: reaching athiesm is a transition (tho some never get there, or even close).  For some, that transition longer than others.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 11:37am | IP Logged | 4  

I thought of myself as an agnostic for many years. I got tired of people telling me I was just a "chicken atheist", but that was not what finally nudged me all the way.

No, that came from the realization that I simply could not accept the most basic tenant of agnosticism, that we simply "cannot know for sure".

As I grew older, read more, thought more, I realized that we CAN know. It's something of a variant on something else Bertrand Russell said -- that all religions cannot be right, so they must all be wrong. For me, it comes down to BELIEF requiring me to reject so much of what science has actually shown us to be true. If science finds a problem it cannot immediately solve, it keeps digging, sifting, sorting, questioning. Eventually the answer will come -- or it won't. But none of that falls into the religious response of "there are somethings we were not meant to know" or, even worse, "here is the answer, and if it contradicts your common sense, YOU are wrong."

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John Young
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 11:47am | IP Logged | 5  

In "Childhood's End" the Overlords gave humans access to a device that allowed historians view the past.  From the information they gathered and presented, the people abandoned the "old gods".  Will there ever be a time that people will abandon the "old gods". What would it take?

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Robert White
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 12:25pm | IP Logged | 6  

I find that atheism was the only logical conclusion to where I'd end up. I never understood the "logic" behind the Christian story. (And to be fair, of any of the other stories.) When you strip all the layers off, to be a Christian, you have to believe in the plausibility of few moderately educated men in the "desert" being directly spoken to by an omnipotent deity that not only doesn't manifest to us in any measurable way, but neither does any of his lesser "subordinates." That's the microscopic thread that its all held up by. This belief system simply does not warrant respect or the weight of gravity that politics and history has given it. It's absurd and no more real than the cosmology of Tolkien. 

All of these conclusions I more of less formulated as a child. Now, add to this the fact that it is plan for all to see, Christians included, that many of the basic tenets that make up the story of Christ was adopted from older systems. Like Christopher Hitchen's once said, "a thinking person simply cannot believe this." 
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Bill Conway
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 2:59pm | IP Logged | 7  

First of all, this is America and people have the right to either believe or not believe whatever they want to.

That said, I think that the main reasons that so many American atheists are not readily accepted by "people of faith" is not so much for their professed disbelief in God, but rather for the intolerance on the part of some atheists towards “people of faith” when they discuss religion.

I have heard some of those arguing an atheist’s POV use the term "stupid", "illogical", "uneducated", etc. when describing the beliefs of the religious, and sometimes they do come off sounding a bit nasty.

 

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Brandon Frye
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 4:09pm | IP Logged | 8  


 QUOTE:

That said, I think that the main reasons that so many American atheists are not readily accepted by "people of faith" is not so much for their professed disbelief in God, but rather for the intolerance on the part of some atheists towards “people of faith” when they discuss religion.

I have heard some of those arguing an atheist’s POV use the term "stupid", "illogical", "uneducated", etc. when describing the beliefs of the religious, and sometimes they do come off sounding a bit nasty

More often than not, I've seen the reverse. Many christians are often quick to take offense when topics like evolution are brought up. Sometimes they simply scoff and sneer but other times they do in fact, get nasty about it (of course that is when various religions aren't too busy taking swipes at each other).

 

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Bill Conway
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 4:16pm | IP Logged | 9  

Yup - it does go both ways. Tolerance is what's needed on all sides.

PS. If you ever get the chance, read C.S Lewis's autobiography Suprised By Joy - this tells the story of how JRR Tolkien helped Lewis make the leap from athiesm to theism and then to Christianity.



Edited by Bill Conway on 31 January 2013 at 4:45pm
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Jeff Dyer
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 6:39pm | IP Logged | 10  


The indoctrination in the majority of believers runs so deep many cannot take even a single step back, to look at their religions from "outside", to ask themselves how much they would accept of these teachings if they had not been drilled into them when they were far to young to realize they were being brainwashed.

John, why do you assume that those who believe in God must have been "brainwashed"?  I respect your beliefs.  I assume you came to those beliefs after much thought and deliberation.  I believe in God...and I came to that belief by the same methods.  Sir, I was not brainwashed.  I have doubts and question certain aspects of my faith.  This is not blind acceptance, following like a sheep.  I don't know what kind of churches or religions you are talking about, but I did not have my faith drilled into me. As an atheist, you have every right to tell me I don't understand your point of view.  The opposite is also true.  As a Christian, I am telling you that your comments here seem to me to be misinformed.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 9:46pm | IP Logged | 11  

Jeff - Unless you were raised in a totally none religious environment, and came to your beliefs completely without input from any friends, relatives or authority figures of any kind -- and, further, came to those beliefs as an adult, OF COURSE you were brainwashed. Brainwashed and indoctrinated in the same manner as are millions of children in thousands of cults, sects, faiths and other structures of thought they lack the mental capacity to analyze rationally.

I think it was Richard Dawkins, reacting to a writer who referred to "Moslem babies", who pointed out there are no such things as Moslem babies, or Jewish babies, or Catholic babies, or babies of any faith. We are all born as blank slates, slates upon which those aforementioned authority figures immediately begin writing. And none of us have any way to know that writing is occuring until it is so deeply ingrained into our very sense of ourselves that we honestly cannot imagine a scenario in which it was not a part of us.

And that's brainwashing.

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Robert White
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Posted: 01 February 2013 at 12:07am | IP Logged | 12  

But what does it mean to "come to faith"? This is never explained in any rational or satisfactory detail. What it it about the story, other than a cozy warm feeling, that warrants believing it? How can you come to the belief in something that is man made and has been spelled out for you in real history? Why do you believe the claims of a few men who would be considered delusional even by the standards of modern Christianity? Just because of the comfortably removed 2000+ year gap?

I'm passed given "rational, agreeable" Christians a pass. There is nothing in the SPECIFIC claims of any religion that bears a sliver of rationality about it. The idea of a "creator"? Sure, it's not out of the realm of logic, but that could be anything; an alien scientist from another dimension, a mindless ball of energy, etc. Even this doesn't rationalize the specific belief system that openly accepts "facts" such as angels and demons, Christmas trees, layers of hell and heaven, etc, which have been proven to be man made. 

This is were it utterly falls apart; it's obviously nothing more than another part of culture. On the surface it's all aesthetic drapery modified and borrowed over time. "Mmm, I created this stone carving in the shape of a man...that must mean I was created by something like me but much greater. Let me claim that said creator talks to me and see what I can get out of it." It really is this simple. 

So many modern Christians accept all this crap even when it's proven that most of the specifics are fabrications. Some admit it and even denounce the mystical mummery of the Catholics. What is it exactly that's preventing them from taking the "final step" to rational non-belief? Egotism and fear?  "I MUST have a cosmic significance or it's not worth it." "I MUST be rewarded to make being a good person worth it." "I don't want to die." 

We are living in a world of measurable or theoretical claims based on measurable's. There is not a single bit of evidence to support the specific claims that humans have come into direct contact and communication with "spirits" of any kind. Give me one provable and or corroborated manifestation of the lowliest of Godly subjects to someone not poor, uneducated and or isolated, without the aid of chemicals, and I just might change my tune. You won't find it. Is God that insecure? 
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