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John Bodin
Byrne Robotics Member
Purveyor of Rare Items
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3911
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| Posted: 15 February 2013 at 9:22pm | IP Logged | 1
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John Byrne wrote:
| The finger-wagging woman (FWW) accidentally illustrates where ALL religions come from: our fear of Nature, and our need to understand in. Before science evolves and REALLY answers our questions, people like the FWW make up stories, and these stories are repeated so often they become "true". |
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This statement dovetails so well into the thought I was having yesterday about how "global warming" (or "climate change") has effectively become our "new god."
We have advanced to the point where we are brave enough to reject religion in favor of science (and "science" -- not REAL science, but "science" as interpreted by most politicians and non-critical thinkers -- is also a part of the new pantheon of modern "gods"). "Science" has all the answers, so we no longer have to foster superstitious beliefs.
Hear thunder? See lightning? No fear, citizens -- in Greek or Norse times it would have been attributed to Zeus or Thor, but NOW "science" has taught us that this is a natural phenomenon.
Flood, storms, drought? In Greek or Norse or Biblical times, we might have been suffering the wrath of various gods or God, but NOW "science" has taught us that this is a MAN-MADE phenomenon -- NOTHING to be afraid of, unless you're afraid to force change on others to prevent the imminent, man-made disaster that will surely result from the WRATH OF GLOBAL WARMING and/or CLIMATE CHANGE if we don't change our evil ways.
Fear-based control, masquerading as "modern enlightenment." In ancient times, that "enlightenment" was represented by various gods, be they Greek or Norse or whatever, or by God hisself in Judeo-Christian Biblical times, but now, that "enlightenment" is represented by an absolute certainty (a.k.a., "belief") in "science," and a fear-based acceptance that "global warming" and "climate change" ARE real AND man-made.
And yet, isn't that the basis of all religions? Fear-based motivation used to explain natural phenomena that we have a hard time wrapping our minds around?
Keep THAT in mind the next time you feel the need to do any type of hand-wringing over "global warming" and "climate change" -- and if you're a "true believer" in those "modern gods" from the pantheon of "science," I'd encourage you to think twice before claiming so proudly to be an atheist, because the real truth may be that you have bought into a more modern and trendy "god" that masquerades as anything BUT a "god," but which undoubtedly qualifies as a "god" by any measure nonetheless.
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Jeremy Simington
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 April 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 687
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| Posted: 15 February 2013 at 11:01pm | IP Logged | 2
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John Bodin wrote: "I'd encourage you to think twice before claiming so proudly to be an atheist, because the real truth may be that you have bought into a more modern and trendy "god" that masquerades as anything BUT a "god," but which undoubtedly qualifies as a "god" by any measure nonetheless."
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This is a tired and fallacious argument: "Atheism and science are the same as religion--they're all the same kind of belief systems." First problem is conflating science and atheism. They complement each other but are not the same thing. Second problem is that religion is based on faith, which, by definition, is unprovable and therefore not based on truth. Science is testable and provable. Science also encourages changing our view of how the universe works based on new truths that get revealed through the scientific method. Finally, atheism is not a belief system. If it was, then not-stamp-collecting would be a hobby.
One more thing: I suspect that most atheists have thought twice (and probably many more times) about why they are atheists. It's been my experience that most religious people never do so.
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Monte Gruhlke
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3303
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| Posted: 16 February 2013 at 1:01am | IP Logged | 3
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I've thought more than once of being a Catholic — I would think that anyone who doesn't question or review their beliefs on occasion is doing themselves a disservice.
I would argue that Atheism is a more of a belief system rather than a hobby.
It has been my experience that it isn't people with (or without) belief that cause conflict, it's people who blindly adhere to a belief (or without) and who seek measures to inflict what they think on others. Believe it or not, these are two distinct group. While the former is in the majority, the latter gets more air-time. |
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14857
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| Posted: 16 February 2013 at 2:07am | IP Logged | 4
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Keep THAT in mind the next time you feel the need to do any type of hand-
wringing over "global warming" and "climate change" -- and if you're a "true
believer" in those "modern gods" from the pantheon of "science," I'd
encourage you to think twice before claiming so proudly to be an atheist,
because the real truth may be that you have bought into a more modern and
trendy "god" that masquerades as anything BUT a "god," but which
undoubtedly qualifies as a "god" by any measure nonetheless.
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This is utterly stupid. One can separate themselves from the politics and
emotion surrounding climate change, and they still have a body of empirical
evidence to analyze.
First off, the existence of climate change is not an issue. The climate has
changed in some extreme fashions. The debate is whether anthropogenic
climate change exists. And the consensus among the scientific community is
that it does. One can debate the analysis and interpretation of the data that
formed that opinion—that is part of the scientific process—but one cannot
deny that there is empirical data showing a correlation and possible
causation between human activity and climate change.
None of this has to do with fear-based acceptance. The call to form a
response to a climate change? Some of the extreme scenarios described if
nothing is done? Sure, some of those can be fear-based. But you can point to
observable, replicable data showing climate change. Separate yourself from
the emotional components of religion and what do you have? A bunch of
myths and traditions started by dead people hundreds and thousands of
years ago. It's not the same thing.
Edited by Michael Roberts on 16 February 2013 at 2:15am
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Kevin Hagerman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 April 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 18034
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| Posted: 16 February 2013 at 4:50am | IP Logged | 5
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Flood, storms, drought? In Greek or Norse or Biblical times, we might have been suffering the wrath of various gods or God, but NOW "science" has taught us that this is a MAN-MADE phenomenon... -------------- Dust bowl. It was in all the papers.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 16 February 2013 at 6:14am | IP Logged | 6
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I suspect that most atheists have thought twice (and probably many more times) about why they are atheists. It's been my experience that most religious people never do so.•• "Never" is too broad a word, methinks. I am sure even the most devout believers have occasional moments of doubt. They may not be prolonged or profound, but it's impossible of anyone to live in the world as we find it without sometimes bumping into that big "Why?" question. In most cases they are programed to fall back on the tired-out (and tiresome) "God's Plan" response, which is not a response at all, but a working brain demands answers, and even for the Faithful the answers are not always there.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 16 February 2013 at 6:23am | IP Logged | 7
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Keep THAT in mind the next time you feel the need to do any type of hand-wringing over "global warming" and "climate change" -- and if you're a "true believer" in those "modern gods" from the pantheon of "science," I'd encourage you to think twice before claiming so proudly to be an atheist, because the real truth may be that you have bought into a more modern and trendy "god" that masquerades as anything BUT a "god," but which undoubtedly qualifies as a "god" by any measure nonetheless. ----- This is utterly stupid. One can separate themselves from the politics and emotion surrounding climate change, and they still have a body of empirical evidence to analyze. First off, the existence of climate change is not an issue. The climate has changed in some extreme fashions. The debate is whether anthropogenic climate change exists. And the consensus among the scientific community is that it does. •• Climate change is undeniable. That we humans are its principle cause is not something of which I am completely convinced. Either way, tho, it does illustrate how religions develop. Nature is huge and initially incomprehensible. We invent stories to comfort ourselves, and, as these stories grow, we eventually include a degree of CONTROL in them. The gods we put in charge of Nature are accessible to us thru "prayer". Even a "perfect" God, such as the one worshipped by Christians, can be accessed in this manner, and even persuaded to change his mind. I see the notion that climate change is our own fault as springing from this same kind of "thinking". If, as I suspect, climate change is happening because it happens (the history of the Earth is a story of extreme swings in climate long before humans came along), then we are thoroughly and completely fuct. But if we are "causing" it, then we can band together (form a religion) and work to change it (pray) and correct our mistakes and save ourselves. For Modern Man, being utterly and completely at the mercy of Nature is UNACCEPTABLE, just as being utterly and completely at the mercy of their invented gods was unacceptable to our ancestors.
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John Bodin
Byrne Robotics Member
Purveyor of Rare Items
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3911
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| Posted: 16 February 2013 at 11:24am | IP Logged | 8
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John Byrne wrote:
Climate change is undeniable. That we humans are its principle cause is not something of which I am completely convinced. Either way, tho, it does illustrate how religions develop. Nature is huge and initially incomprehensible. We invent stories to comfort ourselves, and, as these stories grow, we eventually include a degree of CONTROL in them. The gods we put in charge of Nature are accessible to us thru "prayer". Even a "perfect" God, such as the one worshipped by Christians, can be accessed in this manner, and even persuaded to change his mind. I see the notion that climate change is our own fault as springing from this same kind of "thinking". If, as I suspect, climate change is happening because it happens (the history of the Earth is a story of extreme swings in climate long before humans came along), then we are thoroughly and completely fuct. But if we are "causing" it, then we can band together (form a religion) and work to change it (pray) and correct our mistakes and save ourselves. For Modern Man, being utterly and completely at the mercy of Nature is UNACCEPTABLE, just as being utterly and completely at the mercy of their invented gods was unacceptable to our ancestors. |
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Thank you, JB -- you did a much better job of making my point than I did.
Climate change is real. Global warming is happening (to some degree, no pun intended). I never said I refute that. I reduce, reuse, recycle, purchase products with an eye toward how they're packaged and produced, and I try to be energy frugal whenever I can (driving, home thermostat, etc.). Every little bit helps IF we are a part of the problem (that's me "knocking on wood," just in case, AND because it's the right thing to do).
I've also read some reports that indicate that the SUN itself has gotten warmer, and if its temperature HAS risen, that would probably have more impact on our global temperature than all the SUV emissions in the world combined, literally.
We think we know so much, but our data points on global temps are very limited and/or anecdotal based on archaeological evidence. Pretending we know too much is as bad as pretending there's nothing to worry about, IMO.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 16 February 2013 at 11:53am | IP Logged | 9
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When I see the big, gasoline burning recycling truck trundling up and down my street, picking up its load, I find myself thinking Yeah, THAT'S "green".A major problem with the whole concept of recycling is that it's very much throwing thimbles full of water on a forest fire. As long as India and China want their cars and TVs and washing machines, and as long as their billions of people are prepared to do anything to get them, it makes not a whole lot of difference what the rest of us do. (The harsh reality seems to be that it's all too little, too late, anyway. The "new normal" is here to stay.)
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
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| Posted: 16 February 2013 at 12:28pm | IP Logged | 10
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Three hours from Shanghai:
Tiananmen Square just a few weeks ago:
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
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| Posted: 16 February 2013 at 12:29pm | IP Logged | 11
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I visited China for six weeks in 1987. Suffice it to say, it never looked anything like the pictures above.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 16 February 2013 at 12:48pm | IP Logged | 12
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When the Christopher Reeve Superman movies went into a steep nose-dive after the first, one of the editors up at DC commented that it was fascinating to watch the movies making all the same mistakes the comics had, but in less time and with more money.I think of this when I see pictures such as those posted by Matt, above. Sure, China wants all the goodies we have in the West. Why not? But do they have to make all the same mistakes we made, in less time and with more money?
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