Our information about these individuals comes from the same authority figures (parents, grandparents, the media, etc), and begins entering our awareness at the same time. We are assured both are real, and when the holiday with which both are associated rolls round each year, we are bombarded with stories and images from their "life".

Eventually, tho, we reach a point where we are not only told that one of them is not real (if we have not already figured it out for ourselves), but that abandoning our belief in this individual is an important rite of passage -- of "growing up". The other, tho, we are not only told we must continue to believe to be real, but that our "salvation" in a very real sense depends upon this continued belief.

Yet, the one we are told isn't real is the one we have actually MET.

(That last element touches on another peculiar aspect of belief. If someone tells us he "talks to God" every day, he is considered pious. If he says he talks to God on his cellphone, he is considered crazy.)

they don't want to discuss the real issues

Like the conflicting accounts throughout the four Gospels? Like the similarity of the Jesus story to other middle eastern savior myths? Like the harm inflicted upon the world by religion (war, racism, sexism, slavery, scientific impediments)? Like the dangers of teaching high schoolers Intelligent Design because some think the evidence for evolution is still up for debate? Like the things the Bible actually teaches vs what its followers like to think it does? Like the absurdity of the First Cause argument?

These are all issues raised by atheists in debates (and in this very thread). But I guess when you can't deal with them straight on, disassembling and sweeping generalizations are all you've got to fall back on.

I will concede that atheists have a tendency to belittle and insult believers--but why wouldn't we?

Once a skeptic puts away the argument that Jesus never existed and The Bible was written hundreds of years after the fact, it puts the discussion on a level playing field.

Translation: If only atheists would ignore all contrary evidence and agree with my absurd propositions, then I'd have a chance at winning the debate.

Yeesh.

The Gospels were written some thirty to sixty years after the events they purport to describe. If you're going to participate in these threads, at least do a little homework so you have some clue what you're talking about.

If that was a serious statement (by the finger-wagging woman), then it proves that some of us are still very much in the Stone Age.  I've learned not to take the "God punishes sinners with death and torture" thing seriously, especially after seeing how many of us sinners end up living quite long and productive (except in the eyes of certain believers) lives.

My beef with religion actually dates back to childhood, when my mother struck up a conversation with me about whether I believed.  My parents never did send me to Sunday school -- dad told me that he had to pull my older brother and sister out after the kids there started bullying them for being "out of towners" -- but they still gave us kids what upbringing they could outside of the Church.  When my mother responded to my answer "no" to whether I believed in God with the question, "Are you a devil?", it was probably the genesis of my view that religion is far too restrictive a mode of thinking to do anybody much good, especially if it takes on a literalist view of scriptures.

What ultimately made me stay out of religious groups, though, was my perceptions of what some people did in its name, such as use fear-mongering to gin up mobs into burning their rock and roll records and make people go hide in bunkers with visions of hellfire raining down upon their heads.  If that is what God wants us to do, I'll take my chances with the hellfire and let Him have His believers.  A "loving father" may scold you and let you deal with the consequences of your actions, but I cannot believe that he would point a (proverbial) gun to your head and force you to do what he wants.

Give me the God who forgives the sinner who repents and tries doing the right things, and accepts that men and women will choose their own path any day.

Fine for people, as individuals, to believe whatever they need to believe to get them thru the day (or the night), but organized religion hasn't done a lick of good in the world, anywhere, ever.

I try to think of Jesus as he really might have been and it's very hard for me to hypothetically recover based on the Gospels

***

The Vatican approved Gospels and there is one of the many reasons I am not a believer

Michael Kane wrote: In at least seven U.S. states, constitutional provisions are in place that bar atheists from public office and one state, Arkansas, has a law that bars an atheist from testifying as a witness at a trial. There are reasons for this folks.

We've been waiting almost two weeks for your follow-up, sir.  Please elucidate.