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Topic: American Atheists should Come Out of the Closet ! (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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John Byrne
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Posted: 07 February 2013 at 1:56pm | IP Logged | 1  

What is the real argument here? If its: "Prove God exists", then wallowing around in the weeds of "was Jesus a real guy" or quoting conflicting scripture from the Bible isn’t going to persuade anyone to change their mind one way or the other.

The question should be: does a Supreme Being/Creator/Divine Intellect exist? Why or Why not...

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These are all parts of the same great question -- tho, really, in the light of what we know in the 21st Century, to even call it a "question" is a dubious use of English. It's akin to those who insist on labeling Evolution a "debate"

But if the "question" is to be considered in any real way, all the elements that compose the question must be considered. The reality of Jesus is one of these elements. It flows in both directions, in fact. If Jesus was provably real, then we would be several steps closer to answering whether he was provably divine. And if he was, then that is several steps closer to proving the existence of God

In the greater scheme of things, neither question is really valid. When I see television "documentaries" that look for proof that God exists, or ask whether science has "found" God, I find myself wondering if such things exist in other cultures. Do people in India watch programs about their gods, with "archeologists" digging around looking for proof? (Goes back to an old question of my own: if we prepare ourselves for the Apocalypse, what if we pick the wrong apocalypse?)

Realistically, whether God or Jesus are/were "real" has no impact on our world. As Richard Dawkins has pointed out, "The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference."

The universe exists, precisely as it is, with or without God. For believers to acknowledge just that would be a giant stride forward.

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DW Zomberg
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Posted: 07 February 2013 at 2:20pm | IP Logged | 2  

There should be a bumper sticker: "I believed in Intelligent Design...until my appendix burst."

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John Byrne
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Posted: 07 February 2013 at 2:40pm | IP Logged | 3  

There should be a bumper sticker: "I believed in Intelligent Design...until my appendix burst."

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For years now I have been disproving "Intelligent Design" with two words: umbilical strangulation.

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Conner Dinkins
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Posted: 07 February 2013 at 4:00pm | IP Logged | 4  


My Question is what is the big deal with Atheists about Jesus actually existing? Does the Atheist worldview stand or fall based on whether the Bible was written in the 1st century and Jesus existing? I don't think it does.

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Neither do atheists.

If you have to swing to this kind of extreme to support your argument, haven't you already lost it?

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I don't think so, If we agree that the Bible was written close to the time of Jesus death and that Jesus existed the debate can actually begin. Most debates I have had with Atheists have centered around trying to admit those points, once they are accepted then we can get to what the text actually say's.
Erhman agrees on these points and has published books on the subject, it would be nice to have a civil discussion about them without the Dawkins agenda of Insult and contempt instead of adressing the issues.

Once a skeptic puts away the argument that "Jesus never existed" and "The Bible was written hundreds of years after the fact" it puts the discussion on a level playing field.

This is what I think Atheists are concerned about, they don't want to discuss the real issues, at least not in the debates I've seen, they want to insult the debater so they don't have to deal with the argument.
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Conner Dinkins
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Posted: 07 February 2013 at 4:11pm | IP Logged | 5  


Conner, Ehrman says there are two dozen points of disagreement between himself and Metzger, not with the texts of the Bible.

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No the quote is about what the New Testament looked like not the disagreement between Erhman and his Mentor.



Here’s what Ehrman says in an interview found in the appendix of Misquoting Jesus (p. 252):

Bruce Metzger is one of the great scholars of modern times, and I dedicated the book to him because he was both my inspiration for going into textual criticism and the person who trained me in the field. I have nothing but respect and admiration for him. And even though we may disagree on important religious questions - he is a firmly committed Christian and I am not - we are in complete agreement on a number of very important historical and textual questions. If he and I were put in a room and asked to hammer out a consensus statement on what we think the original text of the New Testament probably looked like, there would be very few points of disagreement - maybe one or two dozen places out of many thousands.  The position I argue for in ‘Misquoting Jesus’ does not actually stand at odds with Prof. Metzger’s position that the essential Christian beliefs are not affected by textual variants in the manuscript tradition of the New Testament.




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Steven Myers
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Posted: 07 February 2013 at 4:24pm | IP Logged | 6  

Have you seen the commercial where the lady says you can't put anything on the Internet that isn't true? She knows because she read that on the Internet.

Same rationale people give for why everything in the bible is true...

I do give credit to the liberal religious folks who do see the holes in their beliefs and are willing to admit they may be wrong. Some I would call christian-agnostic.
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Doug Campbell
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Posted: 07 February 2013 at 5:55pm | IP Logged | 7  

Extreme skepticism toward the biblical texts sometimes strikes me as the mirror image of the Christian belief in biblical inerrancy.  Both are excessive positions which are at odds with the way historic scholarship actually operates.  Just as no text ought to be assumed to be totally infallible, no text can simply be discarded in its entirety simply because it contains superstition, myth, and obvious nonsense.  If that were our criterion, we'd have to conclude that the vast majority of ancient documents are unreliable and that an enormous number of prominent ancient personalities were fictional constructs (Alexander the Great claimed to be the son of god and was associated with miraculous feats, ergo he clearly did not exist!).

Ultimately, such dogmatic rejection of Christian documents probably does more harm than good to the atheistic cause.  It's thoroughly at odds with the scholarly mainstream, and comes off as a bit shrill and unreasonable to a civilian audience.

Concluding that Jesus probably was a real person is not the same thing as conceding that he was a God-man who rose from the grave.  In much the same way that we can acknowledge a historical Muhammad without believing he was a prophet of God, or admire the achievements of Julius Caesar while rejecting his divinity, so too can we posit the existence of Jesus the apocalypticist Jewish preacher while dismissing the mythological accretions and theological absurdities that have accumulated around the original historical core.  Where history ends and myth begins is impossible to say with certainty, but the story still makes much more sense if there is some history there, no matter how small and distorted.

Acknowledging that actually makes a stronger argument for atheism than denying it, and it's better history to boot.


Edited by Doug Campbell on 07 February 2013 at 6:07pm
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Doug Campbell
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Posted: 07 February 2013 at 6:06pm | IP Logged | 8  

Also, since I've been arguing that Jesus probably existed as a historical person, I should note in passing that I would strongly disagree that the references in Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny or any of the other Roman sources count as documentation for his existence.  Those are all accounts which describe what Christians believed-- in other words they are evidence that Christians existed but not evidence that their Christ did so.

And regarding Ehrman's effusive praise of the "ethical teachings of Jesus," the less said the better.  Blargh.
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 07 February 2013 at 6:49pm | IP Logged | 9  

Concluding that Jesus probably was a real person is not the same thing as conceding that he was a God-man who rose from the grave. 

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It might be in this sense -- we judge his non-divine reality on the basis of the same books that posit his divine reality. I just don't think there's a historian's scalpel sharp enough to divide actual Jesus from worshiped Jesus. Not that it can't be tried or that very interesting work results from those efforts. But do they find the real person, really? 

I mentioned before that in my opinion the crucifixion is highly doubtful to be a fabrication. But accepting that there was "a" crucifixion at the earliest formation of what eventually became the Christian tale is not the same as concluding that the very man Jesus as we know him from the Gospels etc. was the one actually crucified. Somebody was. Maybe one man, maybe more than one. Doubtless Romans as a matter of course crucified Jews, as even the NT stories make use of. But say there was just one man crucified and then say we agree to call him Jesus because, well, that's what the books that say Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead and ascended to the Father tell us. Dubious? A little? A lot? Why not a lot?

We have the stories in the Gospel and one approach to take them all at face value and then continually test them against what the sciences tell us is possible, probable, likely, and certain, tearing the texts apart until we create out own modern non-supernatural, secular pastiche -- but one still fundamentally based on the texts that never were non-supernatural and secular themselves. 

So, while it's not a ridiculous notion that a 1st century Jew in Palestine could have been an apocalyptic preacher who eventually got up Rome's nose and was executed for it -- when we further conclude that this Jew was none other than the Jesus we already knew from the Gospels, well, how much can we really say that we didn't find exactly what we were looking for in the first place because of our method, instead of finding what the evidence, or lack thereof, tells us?

My own opinion is that there had to have been men involved in some kind of minor movement among 1st century Jews in Palestine and that whatever were their activities they led to at least one terrible and terribly important (to them) crucifixion. Beyond that? 
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Jeremy Simington
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Posted: 07 February 2013 at 7:46pm | IP Logged | 10  

I'm a light-weight newbie when it comes to being able to fully articulate the arguments for atheism. However, I'm pretty sure that until someone can prove (using logic, of course) that any god can exist, any discussion about the Bible is white noise. That's why I don't give a hoot about whether Jesus was a real dude or not and when the Bible was written.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 07 February 2013 at 9:44pm | IP Logged | 11  

As stated many a time, I also subscribe to the "Robin Hood" model for Jesus -- several men over many years. Ironically, from a Christian viewpoint, the Crucifixion actually tends to support this hypothesis, since it is so contrary to Messianic prophecy. It's unlikely that the Crucifixion would have become so central to Christian mythology if it hadn't happened to SOMEBODY. Perhaps more than one, in fact.
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 08 February 2013 at 5:37am | IP Logged | 12  

That's why I don't give a hoot about whether Jesus was a real dude or not and when the Bible was written.

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My own interest is historical and not even remotely religious -- but given the subject matter, of course, they are not easily separable in a discussion by at any rate members of our western culture.

Much more broadly, of course, atheism is in no way predicated on the historicity of Jesus, since history as a science has no truck with the supernatural. In this respect a Christian may be mentally hobbled at best when discussing whether Jesus existed and if so what he did and said because..., ya know? A Christian may do his best to put his beliefs aside and may be able quite deeply to discuss the contents of his religion in a purely scientific manner -- for a while, to a degree, but ultimately of course they are his beliefs, so...

Really makes me wonder about Ehrman's most recent book. 
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