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Topic: American Atheists should Come Out of the Closet ! (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

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Posted: 06 February 2013 at 6:44am | IP Logged | 1  

Also, as an aside, the writings of the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus provide a bit of non-Christian evidence for the historical Jesus as well. Josephus' reference to Jesus does appear to have been messed with a bit by later Christian writers copying the documents to make it more robust, but the scholarly consensus is that it still probably represents a non-Christian reference to Jesus. There are also non-interpolated references to John the Baptist and Jesus' brother James in Josephus.

++

Josephus also references Heracles/Hercules in similar terms, and many times more often that the single "Christos" reference. Does that mean Heracles/Hercules is real?

••

Josephus was a Romanized Jew and unconverted. That the reference to Jesus in his History names him as the Messiah casts immediate doubt in the minds of most scholars. Josephus was a well known "Messiah-buster", and had no patience for those with messianic claims.*

Ironically, due to his immersion in the Roman culture, the writings of Josephus were rejected by his fellow Jews, and might have been lost had some later Christian scribe not slipped in some editorializing. It is because of these completely unreliable passages that the History survived, and has come to be recognized as one of the best available histories of the Jewish people from the time.

_______

* Here, the general lack of awareness of what life was like in those days works against most people having a good grasp on what the whole story of Jesus would have meant in context. In the first place, most of the Jewish people in the region had long ago given up any hope of a "messiah" making an appearance. The story had been around too long, and there had been too many claimants. To people in that time and place, there would have been nothing particularly special about one my buy showing up with followers claiming he was the Messiah.

Also, it is important to keep in mind that the popular teachings of the time held that ALL men were "the sons of God". A claim that Jesus was literally so would have cause no particular rise in interest. More of a "Yeah, yeah, me too" response.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 06 February 2013 at 6:51am | IP Logged | 2  

Incidentally (and I have mentioned this before), the speed with which the Christian cult developed is often cited as "proof" that Jesus must have been real. If he did not exist, or was a confabulation of the lives and teachings of several men (which I think most likely), he could not have captured the "hearts and minds" of so many people in such a short span of time.

As a counter argument, I offer Roswell. The parallel to the Jesus mythos to be found in the tales of that "flying saucer crash" are marked and remarkable. From a small incident briefly blown out of proportion and then forgotten for thirty years, we have a substantial "cult" developing once the information was rediscovered and embellished (and embellished, and embellished, and embellished). And Roswell happened in a time when mass communication was commonplace. The mythology persists even tho there are video recordings of the same people saying at one time "I don't know what you're talking about" and at another, years later, "Yes, I was there and saw everything." Turn that into an ancient game of "telephone" and see what you get!

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 06 February 2013 at 7:01am | IP Logged | 3  

Bart Erhman---
But, what I show is that if you have a properly historical approach to, for example, the gospels of the New Testament, you realize fairly quickly that these are based on earlier written accounts, and that those earlier written accounts were based on oral tradition that go back even earlier. Some of these oral traditions make better sense when they’re translated back into Aramaic, Jesus’ own language—which means that even if the gospels are 30 to 40 years later, they’re based on sources that go back to very near the time of Jesus in Palestine.

***

None of which argues or establishes that any New Testament stories, either in broad outlines or particular details, are historical facts. Considering that whatever was the original Jesus "group" had been comprised of Jews in Roman Palestine, the survival of Aramaic bits and possible translated traces in the Greek-language Gospel is neither a surprise nor especially revealing in terms of what we can actually know about the man Jesus.

The more one is familiar with Jewish scripture, the more the stories about Jesus appear clearly fabricated. Jesus' trial is a re-write of the trial of Jeremiah, in many respects. Even Judas' 30 pieces of silver is straight out of Zecheriah: "And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD." Matthew 27:9 incorrectly attributes this to Jeremiah, showing that the early now-Gentile and Greek-speaking community that relied not on the original Hebrew but the Greek Septuagint version was not so learned in scripture and that the stories of Jesus are a pastiche of elements taken from the Jewish Bible pretty much because nobody knew much of anything about Jesus himself.

Personally, I think there is some validity to the idea that the ignominy of crucifixion is not something that the original Jewish Jesus "group" would have fabricated. So, there most likely is something that actually happened in that regard. Beyond assuming that, though, we can know virtually nothing. Some scholars who don't doubt the bare existence of Jesus note that far and away the standard fate of a crucified corpse was to be left out in the open to be eaten by wild animals. I can see how the absolute shock and horror of that could have led both to the Jesus "group" becoming non-Jewish (that is not what was supposed to happen to the Messiah!) and to the tales of his Resurrection and imminent Second Coming.
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 06 February 2013 at 7:04am | IP Logged | 4  

If anyone is curious to investigate a Messianic claimant who did capture the hearts and minds of hundreds of thousands of Jews around the time of Jesus, just read about Bar Kochba.
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DW Zomberg
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Posted: 06 February 2013 at 8:07am | IP Logged | 5  

I'm a fan of Ehrman, but his bristling responses to the notion that Jesus is a fiction bother me. Fine, he thinks a Jewish teacher lived and died 2000 years ago and inspired a "great religion," but he has no cause to label skeptics as cynical and out-of-touch the way he does.

If Paul converted within a year or two of the death of a real Jesus, why does he know so little about the details of life as told in the Gospels?

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Doug Campbell
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Posted: 06 February 2013 at 8:16am | IP Logged | 6  

JB: Josephus was a Romanized Jew and unconverted. That the reference to Jesus in his History names him as the Messiah casts immediate doubt in the minds of most scholars. Josephus was a well known "Messiah-buster", and had no patience for those with messianic claims.* Here, the general lack of awareness of what life was like in those days works against most people having a good grasp on what the whole story of Jesus would have meant in context. In the first place, most of the Jewish people in the region had long ago given up any hope of a "messiah" making an appearance. The story had been around too long, and there had been too many claimants. To people in that time and place, there would have been nothing particularly special about one my buy showing up with followers claiming he was the Messiah.

 If, far from being some sort of unique figure, Jesus was one of a slew of apocalypticist preachers and messianic claimants active in first century Judea, doesn't that make his existence as an actual person more likely?  It seems to me that a flesh and blood Jesus fits into what we know of the time and place very easily.
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Doug Campbell
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Posted: 06 February 2013 at 8:25am | IP Logged | 7  

To those wondering why there is no "paper trail" of contemporary evidence for Jesus I'd extend an invitation to examine how much such evidence we have for Herod Antipas, Pontius Pilate, or even the Emperor Tiberius, all contemporaries of Jesus.

In all of these cases, we depend on a surprisingly small body of documentary evidence.  Indeed, for Herod and Pilate, much of what we have comes from the Gospels themselves.  And even in Tiberius' case, the overwhelming majority of what we know is derived from documents written a generation after his death.

The ancient world, even in a fairly literate and legalistic society like that of the Roman Empire, tended not to produce a surviving paper trail for even the most powerful and important people, let alone a backwoods Jewish preacher like Jesus.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 06 February 2013 at 10:31am | IP Logged | 8  

To those wondering why there is no "paper trail" of contemporary evidence for Jesus I'd extend an invitation to examine how much such evidence we have for Herod Antipas, Pontius Pilate, or even the Emperor Tiberius, all contemporaries of Jesus.

In all of these cases, we depend on a surprisingly small body of documentary evidence.

••

But not NONE AT ALL.

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Doug Campbell
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Posted: 06 February 2013 at 12:17pm | IP Logged | 9  

John,why in your opinion do early Christian account not count as evidence for Jesus?  I don't think you've ever explained why you think that.


Edited by Doug Campbell on 06 February 2013 at 12:21pm
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Bill Conway
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Posted: 06 February 2013 at 2:41pm | IP Logged | 10  

JB - Question: If you were suddenly made "KING OF THE WORLD" tomorrow, would you allow people to believe in the what they wanted or would you outright prohibit religion?
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John Byrne
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Posted: 06 February 2013 at 4:25pm | IP Logged | 11  

People should be free to believe whatever they want to believe, but not to force their beliefs on others.
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Lars Sandmark
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Posted: 06 February 2013 at 4:54pm | IP Logged | 12  

Can I get an 'Amen'?
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