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Robert Bradley
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Joined: 20 September 2006
Location: United States
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| Posted: 05 January 2013 at 2:48pm | IP Logged | 1
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I can understand the thought process behind having both covers redrawn, however I think the final product works on AF #15 - Spider-Man is emphasized and the cover is uncluttered (although I think Ditko's original cover was perfectly acceptable). The final cover for AS #10 doesn't work as well for a couple of reasons - the clash in artist styles (the Enforcers and Big Man by Ditko doesn't really fit with Spider-Man by Kirby & Ayers) and the lack of any interaction only seems to emphasize the lack of backgrounds and difference in styles.
Even at the height of his career Kirby never seemed to get a handle on drawing Spider-Man. The cover for Amazing Fantasy #15 works so well because it combines the best of he and Ditko, The Spider-Man figure on Amazing Spider-Man #10 probably could have used a touch of Ditko to it as well, but I wouldn't be surprised if deadline issues made that impossible.
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Jason Czeskleba
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Joined: 30 April 2004
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| Posted: 06 January 2013 at 2:53am | IP Logged | 2
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John Byrne wrote:
| Getting a cover redrawn, even with the long lead times of those days of yore, would be something that had to get turned around fairly quickly, and Kirby was, as we know, FAST. |
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That being the case, I wonder why Stan got Ditko involved at all? Why not just have Kirby draw the entire cover? It doesn't look like Ditko inks on the Spider-Man figure, so the cover had to pass through three different pairs of hands. That doesn't seem an efficient use of time.
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David Plunkert
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| Posted: 06 January 2013 at 10:20am | IP Logged | 3
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That being the case, I wonder why Stan got Ditko involved at all? Why not just have Kirby draw the entire cover? It doesn't look like Ditko inks on the Spider-Man figure, so the cover had to pass through three different pairs of hands. That doesn't seem an efficient use of time.
iii
There are a number of Ditko touches on the inks of AF 15 that point to his hand.
From an efficiency pov... its certainly efficient to get an available artist to pencil a cover if the first guy can't. The inks would have done probably before the interior was completed.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 06 January 2013 at 10:42am | IP Logged | 4
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"he would not likely have been producing what we would today consider full pencils".--- But Kirby likely drew what was expected from all artists of his days and considered fully rendered pencils. As a matter of fact, I happen to own some of Kirby's photocopies and the sheer quality of his pencils never ceases to strike me as way above what most of his pairs could ever dream to produce, past or present. •• Are those photocopies of the period being discussed here? If so (and, for that matter, even if not!) care to share? Kirby's full pencils were, indeed, detailed and complete. But back at the dawn of the "Marvel Age", when he was producing so many books, the work was more like what we today call "breakdowns". And, it's true they were likely called simply "pencils", even so. Pencilers took different levels of approach, all thru the history of the industry. It's important to remember that the whole idea of having the penciler and the inker be two different people was born of time considerations. A good, fast penciler, like Kirby, could turn out a lot more work if he was not called upon to finish it himself. (One of the crazier things that evolved over the years -- and I have been a part of this lunacy -- was the trend toward tighter and more finished pencils, turning many inkers into little more than "tracers", following the lines the penciler has put on the page. A pointless exercise, when we think of the origins of the jobs.)
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Rick Senger
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06 January 2013 at 11:48am | IP Logged | 5
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I never noticed that Kirby's Spider-man swings with his left hand and Ditko with his right on these two covers. I know he swings with both arms, but has it been established whether Spidey is a southpaw or a righty in everyday life?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 06 January 2013 at 12:31pm | IP Logged | 6
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I never noticed that Kirby's Spider-man swings with his left hand and Ditko with his right on these two covers. I know he swings with both arms, but has it been established whether Spidey is a southpaw or a righty in everyday life?•• Kirby's choice would be dictated by Spider-Man's right-to-left direction of travel across the piece. If he was swinging with his right arm, he'd have to hold the other figure with his left, and that would block his body. (Curiously enough, on the Ditko page I have from AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, he's punching a guy in one panel and leading with his left.)
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Jason Czeskleba
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| Posted: 06 January 2013 at 12:33pm | IP Logged | 7
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David Plunkert wrote:
| There are a number of Ditko touches on the inks of AF 15 that point to his hand. |
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I was talking about the cover to Spider-Man #10, not AF #15. That cover features a Spider-Man figure drawn by Kirby but inked by someone else (Kirby almost never inked himself back then, and it doesn't look like Kirby's ink work). The inking on that Spider-Man figure also pretty clearly isn't Ditko's work (it doesn't look like his style, and Ditko certainly would have fixed the problems with the webbing if he'd been the inker). Yet Ditko did draw and ink the Enforcers on that cover. So as I said, the cover would have had to pass through three guys on its way to completion, which doesn't seem very efficient. Leading me to wonder why it was done that way, and whether the Kirby Spider-Man was a pasteover.
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David Plunkert
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| Posted: 06 January 2013 at 4:12pm | IP Logged | 8
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I was talking about the cover to Spider-Man #10, not AF #15. (snip) Leading me to wonder why it was done that way, and whether the Kirby Spider-Man was a pasteover.
iii
Apologies for the confusion.
On #10 I would assume that yes, the Kirby figure is a paste-over and that Stan... not liking Ditko's first cover gave him a second shot but didn't like the Spider-man figure.
Out of time...he has Kirby redraw Spidey and has it inked by someone close at hand.
Neither Kirby or Ditko worked at the Marvel offices so it was likely a matter of Kirby dropping off pages for another job getting asked to do a quick fix.
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Pascal LISE
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Joined: 29 July 2006
Location: France
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| Posted: 06 January 2013 at 6:04pm | IP Logged | 9
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John said: Are those photocopies of the period being discussed here? If so (and, for that matter, even if not!) care to share? Kirby's full pencils were, indeed, detailed and complete. But back at the dawn of the "Marvel Age", when he was producing so many books, the work was more like what we today call "breakdowns". --- The pencils photocopies I own are post 1966. In 1965, Kirby stopped producing layouts for other artists, refusing any longer to provide Stan Lee with extra stories to dialogue without recieving proper credit and financial compensation for creating the core of a writer work. But don't despair frantic one… Here are some gorgeous unused pencils Jack did for The Incredible Hulk, back at the dawn of "M*** Age", in 1962, when he still had his hand in most of the comics published by M***.
Scarcely what I would call "layouts" or "breakdowns" but, rather complete pencils andn not too shaky at thatn for a guy who had, for a couple of years, half a dozen, or so, of books on his plate… each month!
Also, for comparison with Kirby usual high standard in pencils, still from one of his busiest period, here's a sample of "layouts" he did for Don Heck in 1965. Shortly after, the King cut down his workload, his art blossomed further to unreachable levels and the rest is history.
Edited by Pascal LISE on 20 January 2013 at 5:33pm
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John Bodin
Byrne Robotics Member
Purveyor of Rare Items
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3911
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| Posted: 07 January 2013 at 11:25am | IP Logged | 10
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Brennan Voboril wrote:
| Amazing Fantasy #15 poses by each artist is something I keep coming back to over and over: somehow Ditko's looks like he is running in the air. Anyone else see that? Maybe it is just me but Kirby's looks more natural for a human doing with Spider-Man is doing. You can kind of feel a certain power to it. |
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Yeah, I get that "running on air" vibe with the Ditko AF15 cover, too. Also, for some odd reason, with the guy that Spidey is carrying, I don't care for the way his legs are drawn (the positioning/perspective seems just slightly "off" to me).
In both cases, I would have selected the Kirby covers if I had been the editor in charge.
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Pascal LISE
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Location: France
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| Posted: 18 January 2013 at 6:26pm | IP Logged | 11
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I'm curently reading the excellent IDW's Woodwork book and, there, I just found a quote from Wally Wood that echoes what I wrote about Jack Kirby resentments with Stan Lee.
Wood satirizing Stan Lee's Marvel Method (p195): "Well, he DID come up with two sure fine ideas… the first one was 'Why not let the artists WRITE the stories as well as drawing them?… And the second was… 'ALWAYS SIGN YOUR NAME ON TOP… BIG'. And the rest is history… Stanley, of course, became rich and famous… And Jack? Well, a friend of mine summed it up like this… 'Stanley and Jack have a conference then, Jack goes home and, after a couple of month's gestation, a new book is born. Stanley gets all the money and all the credit… And all poor old Jack gets is a sore arsehole'."
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David Plunkert
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| Posted: 18 January 2013 at 11:37pm | IP Logged | 12
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Stanley gets all the money and all the credit… And all poor old Jack gets is a sore arsehole'."
iiii
Forget for a moment that Stan and Jack are making comics and that could be a sour quote from any guy who works for/or with someone else.
Stan wrote standing up when he could...his arse never got sore.
Is there any comic book artist who doesn't think their "arsehole" is sorer than any comic book writer's?
Also...realizing that there's a different creative commitment involved...is Marvel method generally faster or slower than working full script for the artist?
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