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Thom Price
Byrne Robotics Member
L’Homme Diabolique
Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7593
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| Posted: 31 December 2012 at 7:48pm | IP Logged | 1
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I'd agree with Thom's point about theaters being the primary format for movies and home video being a secondary experience, but I was talking with a group of guys at work who each bought 60" LCD or Plasma TVs for Christmas.
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The 'theater experience' goes beyond just the size of the screen or the fidelity of the sound. After all, if we're only talking about the size of the display, what's more comparable than a comic book and a tablet? We've had the discussion here periodically, and there are many cinemaphiles -- and I would imagine many filmmakers -- who consider the true experience only happening in a theater, with the communal interaction of the audience. That can never be fully duplicated in a home theater environment.
I guess that's the crux of this discussion -- whether the 'experience' is important to a person. For myself, it's not. Whether we're talking about a movie or a novel or a comic book, I only care about the entertainment the story provides. The physical book means no more to me than going to a movie theater does.
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being at the mercy of the company deciding to delete the file you paid for off your harddrive/iOS device, nearly everyone I know advocates piracy of some form or another to either modify those files so they can't be deleted (or so they can be archived without fear of deletion) or outright piracy to get the file in the first place so that NO ONE gets the money for the product.
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I'm not aware of any instance of someone getting into legal trouble for making personal copies of items they own, but the whole area is such a murky gray. It is legal, for instance, to make a single, archival copy of software for personal use -- but not legal to do the same for movies or music. That applies to making a second disc. I could make a backup DVD of Microsoft Office, but not of a movie on DVD.
I'm not sure if there is any precedent for making digital copies for personal use only. During a case with the Supreme Court, a lawyer for the recording industry specifically stated that his clients had no issue with consumers making MP3s from CDs they own; it was only the act of illegal sharing they were combating. I would imagine the same holds true for other media.
Would it be legal for me to make a photocopy of a Spider-Man comic book for my own use? No ... but it's pretty unlikely that it would have Marvel's lawyers or the FBI knocking on my door. On the other hand, giving away or selling those copies would almost certainly result in legal action.
I follow the same approach to digital media. I would never share; I neither upload nor download files. But I have not the slightest qualm about removing DRM from a file I purchased to have a safe backup, or use the file on another device. While I respect a company's right to combat piracy, I think it's awfully cheeky to tell me how I can use a product I purchased. Imagine opening a DVD and finding a notice telling you that you can only watch the disc on one TV in your house!
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Aaron Smith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 10461
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| Posted: 31 December 2012 at 8:46pm | IP Logged | 2
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Thinking about this some more, I believe the digital platform is the rebirth of the news stand market, that the Direct Sales Market killed off. It opens things up big time.
Basically, comics are no longer longer relegated to specialty shops that you have to willingly seek out. They're no longer controlled essentially by a single distributor.
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The possible problem I see here is that the digital platform still doesn't replace what the Direct Market stole from comics: the possibility of comics being accidentally encountered by new potential customers as they might have been when they were widely available on newsstands and in convenience stores all over. To find digital comics, you still have to seek them out, though it's now online where you have to look instead of driving to a comics shop. Comics being available digitally is not going to hurt the market as it is now, but I don't see how it will improve it either or get comics in front of new customers. It won't solve the problems caused by the dominance of the direct market.
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Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 31 December 2012 at 8:57pm | IP Logged | 3
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I think it's awfully cheeky to tell me how I can use a product I purchased. Imagine opening a DVD and finding a notice telling you that you can only watch the disc on one TV in your house!
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But that's just it; if you purchase a digital copy of, say, the newest issue of Amazing Spider-Man, you are NOT in fact buying a product - you're obtaining a license to read a product. A license which the holders of the property can revoke at any time they wish, taking away "your" "copy" of the comic unless you illegally archive it in a different format.
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Thom Price
Byrne Robotics Member
L’Homme Diabolique
Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7593
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| Posted: 31 December 2012 at 9:00pm | IP Logged | 4
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To find digital comics, you still have to seek them out, though it's now online where you have to look instead of driving to a comics shop.
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That may have been true while the market was exclusive to comic specific apps like Comixology, but now that Amazon is offering digital comics it's very much like the old days of browsing at a newsstand or book store. I've never purchased a single digital comic book from Amazon, but they're already showing up as 'suggestions' for me.
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Aaron Smith
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 31 December 2012 at 9:03pm | IP Logged | 5
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Still, I don't think it would have the same impact as walking into a store and seeing a spinner rack full of different covers, especially if you weren't looking for comics to begin with.
That's not to say that I'm against digital comics. While I prefer paper, I'm glad there's also a digital market and I have no problem with some people preferring them.
I just don't think it really "opens things up big time" as Mark said in his post.
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Thom Price
Byrne Robotics Member
L’Homme Diabolique
Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7593
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| Posted: 31 December 2012 at 9:06pm | IP Logged | 6
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taking away "your" "copy" of the comic unless you illegally archive it in a different format
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And I wish them the best of luck trying to enforce that!
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Brad Krawchuk
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| Posted: 31 December 2012 at 9:16pm | IP Logged | 7
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And I wish them the best of luck trying to enforce that!
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It's already happened, ironically enough with 1984 and Animal Farm on the Kindle a few years back. The company that sold those books on the Kindle reader didn't have the copyright for them, so Amazon gladly avoided a potential copyright suit by deleting all the copies off of users' Kindles and refunding their money.
You have an e-device, be it an iPad, iPod Touch, Kindle, Kobo, an MS Surface, or whatever, and in order to use that device or get media onto it you need to go online with it. Whether that's a Wi-Fi hotspot at McDonald's, Starbucks, or the local library, at home on a router, or through a wireless 4G network, once you're online Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, or whoever makes your device has access to all your Apps and programs. They can pretty much delete whatever they want.
Unless you download a bunch of stuff and then turn off Wi-Fi and never go back online with your product again, there's not a whole you can do to prevent them from enforcing whatever they wish.
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Thom Price
Byrne Robotics Member
L’Homme Diabolique
Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7593
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| Posted: 31 December 2012 at 9:37pm | IP Logged | 8
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Unless you download a bunch of stuff and then turn off Wi-Fi and never go back online with your product again, there's not a whole you can do to prevent them from enforcing whatever they wish.
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I beg to differ. I've already stated that I have no qualms about removing DRM. I have copies of every comic book, book, song and video I have ever purchased. The companies can EULA-doublespeak about these transactions being "licenses" all they want; if I am paying the same (or darn close to the same) price as I would for a physical item, I will have that item in my library and not at the whim of the company.
If and when companies start suing people for making copies of their purchases for personal use, I guess I'll consider that stance. I have zero expectation of that ever happening, as it would almost certainly result in a consumer backlash. It's one thing to crack down on pirates -- even when they seem innocuous, like an old lady who downloaded 2 songs -- but to go after paying customers who are not sharing the files would be both brazen and stupid.
By the letter of the law, it is also illegal to copy songs from a CD into digital format, but the recording industry has gone on record as saying it does not concern them, and I am unaware of any case to contradict this. These copyright laws are absurdly broad, but that doesn't mean they're actively enforced (or even enforceable.)
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Marc M. Woolman
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 31 December 2012 at 9:48pm | IP Logged | 9
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It's not illegal btw, to make copies of movies, TV shows, etc, that you bought on DVD or Blu-ray, for your own personal use. That's how companies that sell the software to enable you to do this are able to exist.That's also why computers come with DVD and Blu-ray burners.
I have no idea what's legal or not for digital comics or books, but I do know I prefer real comics. (Though I'd happily switch to only buying regular books digitally) Too many comics are stretching out stories into multiple issues by loading them up with double-page spreads, which I'd imagine would not work out so great when viewing them on a tablet.
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Eric Kleefeld
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Joined: 21 December 2004
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| Posted: 31 December 2012 at 9:50pm | IP Logged | 10
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I have read both the Lee/Kirby Fantastic Four and John Byrne's run in digital formats, on that DVD-ROM that Marvel put out years ago with the full run of the comic (up to that point) scanned into PDF files.
I don't feel I missed out on anything, and I appreciated the ability to bring up any issue of the comic instantly with just a few clicks.
I've similarly read tons of Hulk comics from that character's DVD-ROM, starting from all of the Bill Mantlo run up through the first half of Peter David and everything in between.
I know that there are authors who have argued against the Kindle as not being a "real" reading experience. But I wonder: Did scribes (and the owners of handwritten books) say the same thing against the printing press centuries ago?
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Clifford Boudreaux
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| Posted: 31 December 2012 at 9:58pm | IP Logged | 11
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Still, I don't think it would have the same impact as walking into a store and seeing a spinner rack full of different covers, especially if you weren't looking for comics to begin with.
Maybe not, but that disappeared a long time ago. It's not coming back. Digital is the first real option to buy monthly comics outside of the Direct Market. And one that can deliver a cheaper product to boot.
I just don't think it really "opens things up big time" as Mark said in his post.
In this moment, no. Long-term might be another story. Right now, a fairly small percentage of the population owns a tablet, but they're becoming more and more common. You can buy comic collections on iTunes, Google Play, and Amazon Marketplace. The same places where everyone buys their music, movies, TV, books, and games.
Already people are buying cheap tablets for their kids. Amazon has a service which allows kids to download anything they like from the Kids Marketplace for the cost of a monthly subscription.
Sales prediction algorithms can easily direct you toward comics if you look at any related item. Look up a Star Trek book and you'll get suggestions for Star Trek comics.
This is probably as high a profile as comics can hope for.
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Thom Price
Byrne Robotics Member
L’Homme Diabolique
Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7593
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| Posted: 31 December 2012 at 10:03pm | IP Logged | 12
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I's not illegal btw, to make copies of movies, TV shows, etc, that you bought on DVD or Blu-ray, for your own personal use
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I wasn't sure, as there seemed to be a contradiction between US Copyright Law and the Digital Millennium Copyright Act; the former says it's acceptable to make copies for personal use, while the later apparently does not. The list of what's acceptable and not acceptable according to the DMCA is downright opaque.
But it just re-enforces my belief that the likelihood of a company cracking down on consumers for making personal copies of digital files is somewhere around nil.
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Topic Closed)
