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Tim O Neill
Byrne Robotics Security
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10937
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| Posted: 14 January 2013 at 8:29am | IP Logged | 1
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Rob O: "I think this storyline could have played out better with a more gradual change in Peter with the readers getting more accustomed to Peter talking and acting like Otto and then pulling the rug out with the reveal in #698. Leave everyone wondering how long Otto's been in there and when the switch occurred."
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I think this would have been a mistake - this is exactly the long, multi-issue arc that annoys me about modern comic books. I like that this really starts with issue #698, and with SUPERIOR SPIDER-MAN #1, the story is on its fourth issue. That's much better story economy and easier for me to wrap my head around than something like AVENGERS VS. X-MEN, in which there are multiple titles bumping into each other.
I made sure to read the Hobgoblin story first, thinking there would be a major set-up. But there was just a tiny blip in which Doctor Octopus' drone crawls out of the ocean to get Peter. You didn't need to read it to get it.
I like the reveal at the end of SUPERIOR SPIDER-MAN - this story is moving at a good clip and has me engaged.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 14 January 2013 at 8:49am | IP Logged | 2
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When I was a kid, I used to wonder when Superman had been so foolish as to TELL people he had a secret identity.++ Did he? I don't recall any issue of that happening. In the gold and silver age, I mostly remember Lois suspecting Clark is Superman because he's never around when the action goes down. •• That was my point. Superman's secret identity became common knowledge because writers started giving characters the same knowledge they, the writers, had. But there was no scene where Superman actually announced he had a secret identity. (I remember one story in which Superman is testifying in court, and one of the lawyers, attempting to compel him to reveal his secret identity, demands that Superman tell the court, under oath, his real name. Superman responds "Kal-El".)
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Clifford Boudreaux
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2012
Posts: 443
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| Posted: 14 January 2013 at 11:46am | IP Logged | 3
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We've all griped about the practice of Writing For the Trade but I've yet to see anyone complain about Writing For the Spoilers. I feel far too many comic writers today structure their stories with full knowledge that the big plot twists and character deaths are likely to be spoiled and discussed online long before the issues hit the stands.
It's certainly a challenge, especially as people become more and more aware of basic tropes and twists. The previous season of Dexter is an example of a twist that just about everyone figured out long before it landed, which probably would have been better served by moving up the reveal several episodes.
On American Horror Story, they rarely keep a mystery in play for more than a couple of episodes, so even if you figure it out it feels like a step toward something bigger than the goal.
I remember being pretty impressed with Moffat's first episode on Doctor Who because amidst the very obvious reveals, he had slipped in lots of unexpected reveals and fake-outs. So even though the most obvious reveal in the world is about to happen (very few people are fooled by the identity of the police woman), it's not the only thing going on. And I also love how he didn't drag out the final reveal for several episodes, letting the audience get out ahead of him then hitting us with something we knew was coming with the image of the dress. It was such a great script which let us feel smart for figuring things out ahead of the Doctor, while fooling us often enough that we didn't know exactly where it was heading.
I think the best way to do a twist is to land a really big punch immediately after the Big Twist, since the fans tend to get so focused on what's coming, they fail to think about what they'll do with it afterwards. So if the Big Twist is someone faked their death, then you need to push forward as fast as possible when that's revealed so you catch the audience unaware with their plan. I've seen far too many writers do the reveal, then wait another installment to reveal their plan, leaving the audience plenty of time to think back over the story and figure the rather obvious thing they're up to.
American Horror Story and Moffat's Who is really about making the stories as eventful as possible so when the Big Reveals fail, there's so much other stuff holding the episode up that it doesn't matter. Whereas Dexter failed because there was so very little happening that there was nothing else to salvage the show failing at its Central Twist.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 14 January 2013 at 11:51am | IP Logged | 4
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It's certainly a challenge, especially as people become more and more aware of basic tropes and twists.•• That's a sign it's time for the readers to move on, not for the writers to be "challenged".
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Clifford Boudreaux
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2012
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| Posted: 14 January 2013 at 12:04pm | IP Logged | 5
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That's a sign it's time for the readers to move on, not for the writers to be "challenged".
If it was 30 years ago and most of the audience was under the age of 15, then maybe you could get away with it, although today's kids will be reading TV Tropes and watching endless parody movies... so maybe not.
But today, adults are such a huge portion of the audience, even if you were doing a kid-friendly book, you'd have to step up the game to keep the adults there.
Doctor Who is a prime example of something which has been doing this for decades. It's displayed a certain amount of genre-awareness since at least the 70s and knows how to subvert expectations on a regular basis. It's part of what makes it family entertainment over there.
If you're playing down to the kiddies, depending on their ignorance of tired cliches, then you're not all-ages.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 14 January 2013 at 12:07pm | IP Logged | 6
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But today, adults are such a huge portion of the audience, even if you were doing a kid-friendly book, you'd have to step up the game to keep the adults there. •• Adults who cannot accept the "tropes" should be among the first to move on. "I've seen this 100 times before!" is the cry of the ennui-engorged fanboy who needs to get a life. Again, it's complaining because the sportscar bought in one's teens doesn't fully serve the wife and kids.
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Clifford Boudreaux
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| Posted: 14 January 2013 at 12:25pm | IP Logged | 7
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Adults who cannot accept the "tropes" should be among the first to move on. "I've seen this 100 times before!" is the cry of the ennui-engorged fanboy who needs to get a life.
And then it's not all-ages.
All-ages material needs to be smart enough that even though they've see this a hundred times before, it's still fresh. If a writer doesn't want the adults to walk away out of boredom, then s/he needs to step up the game. There's no way around it.
There's a great scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark where Harrison Ford steals a uniform and it doesn't fit. This is what I'm talking about. They've taken a set-up everyone has seen a million times before and did something new with it. Something which works for both young and old fans. They're having fun with the standard tropes, which keeps the adults entertained.
Most of the stuff comics do to make comics more "adult" is crap. It's a bunch of formulaic nonsense that readers get tired of in a few years. And it's because it's not smart. It's just a different set of tropes they hadn't seen applied to these characters before and once the novelty wears off, they wander away and then you have to resort to more and more stunts to get them back... which is what we see today.
Clever writing for kids is what we need. There is no better example on the planet than Doctor Who. Yeah, it might lose its way every now and then, but the entire franchise is built upon having fun with a bunch of tropes we've seen a million times before and the key to their success is they make it fun no matter how often you've seen it before.
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Greg Woronchak
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 September 2007
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 14 January 2013 at 12:30pm | IP Logged | 8
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you'd have to step up the game to keep the adults there.
I think the challenge is to create material that both kids and adults can enjoy simultaneously... I'd call that 'all ages'.
Pixar seem to be perfect at this; animation should be inspiration for comic creators.
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Clifford Boudreaux
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| Posted: 14 January 2013 at 12:37pm | IP Logged | 9
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I think the challenge is to create material that both kids and adults can enjoy simultaneously... I'd call that 'all ages'.
Pixar seem to be perfect at this; animation should be inspiration for comic creators.
Pixar is a great example of what I'm talking about. Toy Story is pretty basic stuff on a plot level. Nothing we haven't seen a million times before, but they weave in so much warmth and humor and clever writing that adults are enchanted.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 14 January 2013 at 1:42pm | IP Logged | 10
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I think the challenge is to create material that both kids and adults can enjoy simultaneously... I'd call that 'all ages'. •• Unfortunately, if you say "all ages" to a whole lot of modern "fans", they hear "kid's stuff". These selfish a-holes want the books full of the sex they don't get at home, and the cuss-words they think are "sophisticated".
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 14 January 2013 at 1:43pm | IP Logged | 11
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Clever writing for kids is what we need. There is no better example on the planet than Doctor Who.•• DOCTOR WHO has not been "for kids" since the reboot.
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
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| Posted: 14 January 2013 at 2:13pm | IP Logged | 12
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CLIFFORD: Clever writing for kids is what we need. There is no better example on the planet than Doctor Who.
••
JB: DOCTOR WHO has not been "for kids" since the reboot.
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SER: I think new WHO has been tailored more for women since the reboot: the casting of the Doctor, the use of the female companion as a "clever dream girl." Conversely, Leela, for example, was definitely for the dads watching with their sons.
I mention this because I think modern comics is still an impenetrable "boy's club." Even when a character that young girls might identify with like Cassie Sandsmark is created, it's not long before she becomes a male fantasy with big breasts. Even Supergirl (previously basically Betty Cooper with super powers) has not been spared this.
I dunno -- maybe it's a longshot but perhaps their popularity could be increased if the books were made more "female friendly." After all, if 20 yrs ago, you told me that DOCTOR WHO would be a show girls would be blogging about or setting dates to watch with their boyfriends... well, first I'd ask you what blogging was, but I'd also be very surprised.
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Topic Closed)
