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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 05 January 2013 at 10:29am | IP Logged | 1  

The complete shift to the DSM did happen "overnight". At the time I wailed against the insanity of it -- voice crying in the wilderness -- and received only the usual metaphorical tousling of my hair and promises that we were on the verge of a new Golden Age, so I should stop being such a wet blanket.

Of course, wet blankets are sometimes used to put out fires, aren't they?

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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 05 January 2013 at 11:37am | IP Logged | 2  

That was when they were based in Australia and fought demons and cyborgs. 

Personally, I'd go back a bit earlier; possibly even just before Secret Wars! 

It's interesting how we all have our idea of when Marvel "changed". I used to argue that it was the addition of the Jim Lee X-Men title. I then thought it was after Fall of the Mutants. I settled on #200 as the issue that I decided that MY X-Men started to change into something that I didn't like. Of course, I have an older friend that says that the X-Men stopped being good when Dave Cockrum left. A younger person at my LCS talks about the "glory days" of the Joe Mad era.

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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

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Posted: 05 January 2013 at 11:41am | IP Logged | 3  

Roger Stern used to say -- and probably still does -- that the "death" of the real Marvel occurred with the publication of MARVEL TEAM-UP 1. Spider-Man, Marvel's eternal outcast and loner, was put into a book where every month he would "team up" with a different character, all in the name of the Almighty Dollar.
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Aaron Smith
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Posted: 05 January 2013 at 11:52am | IP Logged | 4  

I settled on #200 as the issue that I decided that MY X-Men started to change into something that I didn't like.

***

201 was my first exposure to the X-Men and I loved it, followed the title for several years. But, after going back and reading everything from Giant Size X-Men #1 to Uncanny # 200, I now feel that 200 is when everything started to go wrong and I doubt I'll ever reread anything after that point. What seemed good at the time now seems a lot worse after reading the truly great stuff that came before it.
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Francesco Vanagolli
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Posted: 05 January 2013 at 2:13pm | IP Logged | 5  

Aaron, I really appreciate when someone admits that his first exposure to a comic book isn't automatically the zenith of the book. It's so... honest!

So different from the "it matters only since I started" mentality I see on so many boards!
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Tim O Neill
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Posted: 05 January 2013 at 2:49pm | IP Logged | 6  


I agree with so many comments on this thread in relation to the current state of comic book publishing, but I don't agree with this is regard to the current issues of SPIDER-MAN.  The storyline in question started with an arc that began in issue #698 - the whole Peter Parker/Dr. Octopus storyline was done in three issues, which is indicative of Dan Slott's tight storytelling.  The characters and situations are all very on the mark to me, and I think it is accessible to all ages

I've been on board since "Brand New Day", and the comic book is a great read on a regular basis.  Spider-Man stories are so reliant on how Peter is depicted, and this book has restored the character to something that is both familiar and cracking with new energy.  It has that perfect blend of comic book action with Spider-Man's sharp quips.



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Carmen Bernardo
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Posted: 05 January 2013 at 5:34pm | IP Logged | 7  

 Greg Kirkman wrote:
What's your tipping point for a fictional universe's "house of cards"?

   For me, the tipping point was more like losing the rudder on a ship that was getting caught up in crosswinds.  The years between 1988 and 1994 saw me buying no Marvel comics, and even afterwards I would only turn my attention to certain titles which seemed "untouched" by such things as crossovers, staged "events", and characters behaving in ways that I knew they shouldn't have acted.  The final straw came in 2004, with the scene where the X-Men stood by like panicked sheep when villains blew up a busload of students from their own school on the front driveway as they watched.

   Many of the problems lie with the "rockstar" creative teams and editors, as Greg pointed out in his reply.  I see no need to add anything more.  The question now is how long before they end this train wreck.  Unfortunately, I can't see it ending well.

P.S.  Per Aaron's post above, I came in at about the same time.  My mom was my first source, having picked them up at the local grocery stores (including times when I tagged along).  Then the word spread from my grade school chum that comicbook stores actually existed!  By the time that I was able to see the shop he was raving about, there was already a new shop closer by, and the first one was closing down.

P.P.S. Today, in my 20-minute driving range, there are only 3 surviving comic stores.  The one or two that occasionally pop up within the range usually go out of business within a few months of opening.



Edited by Carmen Bernardo on 05 January 2013 at 5:42pm
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 05 January 2013 at 8:25pm | IP Logged | 8  

I've posted before that my exposure to Marvel was originally through my older brother's collection. Those issues were published anywhere between 1974 through 1981 or so. I was born in 1973 and basically had 8 years worth of stories from various comics to choose from when I learned how to read. Even though my parents would buy me a comic because my brother would get one, I didn't buy my first "real" comic unitl 1982. That lead to a fun hobby for about 14 years or so. I had a couple of friends that collected as well and we would read each others comics and talk about them. It was great!

At some point, the X-Men started adding members and there were characters that I didn't care about replacing my favorite characters. JB left the Fantastic Four. Roger Stern left the Avengers. Walt Simonson left Thor. Frenz and DeFalco left Amazing Spider-Man. The New Mutants started to get dark and serious when they were killed (and resurrected) by the Beyonder and a crossover killed off Doug Ramsey. I was pretty much in denial when the X-Tinction Agenda led to the creation of the Jim Lee X-Men title. That opened up a Marvel that just got darker as people grew stubble, hair was grown longer, leather jackets were worn, and boobs started to protrude. Marvel once had many interesting non-powered characters. They were given powers and costumes or killed off. Then my favorite X-Man, Colossus, turned against the X-Men and joined Magneto. Marvel always had it's darker elements but now they were just making ugly comics. Even some of the newer titles that started out fun were getting darker like New Warriors when they had Vance Astrovik kill his father and killed off Rage's grandmother. I told the owner of my LCS that I thought it was time to take a break from comics because I didn't enjoy them anymore.

I came back years later because I heard good things about alot of comics. I got back into it and buy what I like but I also realize that the Marvel of my youth doesn't exist anymore. If I don't like what they do to a character, I don't buy it. There are other companies to enjoy. I won't fool myself that I'm going to enjoy the Fantastic Four at the level that I did when JB was writing and doing art. I may enjoy it as much as I did when I discovered my brother's Marv Wolfman/Keith Pollard issues though. I KNOW that the X-Men won't come close to being as good as when JB, Chris Claremont, Dave Cockrum, Brent Anderson, Paul Smith, or JRjr. were on it. I gave it a shot and I realize that Bendis' take on the X-Men doesn't ring true to me. I'll always give a Marvel title a shot because I love those characters. Well maybe not Alpha Flight. Love the characters but if the name John Byrne isn't attached to it, forget about it.   



Edited by Shawn Kane on 05 January 2013 at 8:42pm
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Robert Bradley
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Posted: 05 January 2013 at 9:54pm | IP Logged | 9  

I think Marvel peaked creatively in the 1960s and the changes started when their distribution deal with National (DC) ended.  They started churning out more and more product and throwing a lot of shit against the wall to see what would stick.  First it was their core characters who had carried their anthology titles like Iron Man, Doctor Strange, the Silver Surfer, SHIELD, Hulk, the Sub-Mariner, Captain Mar-Vell and Captain America getting their own titles.  They had quite a bit of success there, although some have a history of having trouble maintaining their titles.

In the early 1970s it was the Defenders, Dracula, Adam Warlock, Shang-Chi, Iron Fist, Ghost Rider, the Cat, Killraven, the Beast, Werewolf by Night, Frankenstein's Monster and Luke Cage leading the way, then in the mid-70s it became titles like the Champions, Son of Satan, Man-Wolf, Deathlok, the Invaders, the Inhumans, Ms. Marvel, Nova, Omega the Unknown, the Eternals, Machine Man, What If? and Spider-Woman.

As time went along there was less success creatively, and the tone of the product they were putting out changes with events like  the death of Gwen Stacey, marriage problems for Reed and Sue Richards, and other "real life issues" that kids really aren't looking for in their comics.

Eventually the average age of the reader got higher and higher, and comics moved to the direct market, event-driven stories, more sex and graphic violence and a speculator market.

All  of these things have combined to change the comics industry from what it was.  Certainly some of the changes were to be expected, but the combination of them has left us with an industry that sells a fraction of what they sold 40 years ago.


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John Byrne
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Posted: 06 January 2013 at 7:19am | IP Logged | 10  

I think Marvel peaked creatively in the 1960s…

••

Agreed. In fact, Frank Miller once said to me that Marvel had done so much great stuff in its first ten years, it was basically able to coast for the next twenty (at the time of our conversation).

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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 06 January 2013 at 7:40am | IP Logged | 11  

but the combination of them has left us with an industry that sells a fraction of what they sold 40 years ago.

Lack of availabilty in places that kids go like 7-11 and grocery stores, comics that cost $2.99 to $3.99, video games, and kid-friendlier versions of the characters being on TV are factors. Of course, there's the broader problem that some kids don't like reading at all. I've donated alot of my trade paperbacks (mostly Ultimate stuff) to my high school library and occasionally, my students check them out. As a special education teacher, that makes me happy but I don't think that helps with the problem of exposing a younger audience to comics.



Edited by Shawn Kane on 06 January 2013 at 8:02am
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

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Posted: 06 January 2013 at 8:49am | IP Logged | 12  

Of course, there's the broader problem that some kids don't like reading at all.

••

There is an ironic kind of pyrrhic victory in the fact that many schools now use comic books to encourage kids to READ!!

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