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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14857
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Posted: 02 January 2013 at 5:34am | IP Logged | 1
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What is probably the impetus behind Dan Slott's thinking is how Spider-Man is, or can be, more interesting as a menace. Spider-Man is a lot frightening, and that aspect used to be played up regularly in the comics of Ditko and Lee. The contrast of Peter's bungling awkwardness was necessary, to counter the Spider-Menace persona he articulated. What Slott seems to want is more the Pulp Spider than Spider-Man, a madman in a mask.
Again, I find it interesting, but unnecessary, to change Spider-Man in exactly this way. You could have a dark Spider-Man without sacrificing Peter Parker. Surely...surely a less odious way could have been imagined to rid Peter of his moral center and give the world the creeping menace of Spider-Man? This whole thing sounds weird and confusing and, well, amateurishly unclear to a new reader of any stripe.
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Marvel already has two books about a "dark" Spider-Man (Scarlet Spider and Venom), and I've gotten no sense that Slott is interested in repeating those themes.
One of the recurring themes in Slott's Spider-Man stories is that Spider-Man is more than just his powers. Peter's sense of responsibility, his determination to protect his family and friends, and his scientific genius all add up to make Spider-Man the hero he is. Thus far, there's been a lot of saving of the day with Peter's scientific know-how. Now with Doc Ock as Spider-Man, you'll have someone with Spider-Man's power and an intellect that rivals Peter's. I expect Octavius to learn that those two things alone still won't add up to make Spider-Man.
I can't help read the title SUPERIOR SPIDER-MAN as anything but ironic. Even with Doc Ock's face turn (or is it heel turn? I don't follow wrestling and get those two confused), he's still approaching things with the attitude that Peter was doing things all wrong as a hero. There's been this overall sense that Peter has somehow squandered his potential as a hero from the horrid Civil War plotline where he was working as Tony Stark's protege to the ridiculous ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN cartoon where S.H.I.E.L.D. has to teach Spider-Man and his teen sidekicks to be a better hero. I'd like to see this storyline as a reaction to that, with Octavius failing to be a "superior" Spider-Man because Peter had already been doing the best he could with what he was given.
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Andrew Bitner Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7526
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Posted: 02 January 2013 at 8:02am | IP Logged | 2
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one thing Dan Slott said recently grabbed my attention. he said (and i'm paraphrasing) that J. Jonah Jameson *from the beginning* has said Spider-Man is a menace. but now... everyone LOVES Spider-Man! he's respected and well-liked, even by JJJ. except... now he JUST MIGHT BE a menace and only the READER knows it. in effect, DS said, the reader is now J. Jonah Jameson and the Marvel Universe is the one that believes in Spider-Man's heroism. that's enough to intrigue me, i admit.
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Greg Woronchak Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 September 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 1631
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Posted: 02 January 2013 at 8:36am | IP Logged | 3
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the reader is now J. Jonah Jameson and the Marvel Universe is the one that believes in Spider-Man's heroism
It's probably just me, but why does it seem that the Spidey team has to work so hard to find an interesting 'take' on the character? Plus, all of these awkward hoops to jump through to get to the current status quo.... gah.
I dunno, writing Spider-Man just seems inherently fun and, for lack of a better word, easy. Then again, maybe it's just the craft of awesome writers (like Stan and Roger) who made it look easy.
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Kip Lewis Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 March 2011 Posts: 2880
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Posted: 02 January 2013 at 9:05am | IP Logged | 4
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Greg, there are times, you just need some new blood. Spider-man feels like that me nowadays. And I don't just mean this story; we have seen multiple status quo changes over the last decade, from The Other where Peter dies and comes back with new powers to Unmasking to Brand New Day and probably some other events. Spider-man needs new blood in its creative crew. (Or some old blood who have new stories without resorting to status quo changers.)
I am not saying status quo changers are always bad, but 5 or more withing a short period of time; it means they don't know what to doit with Spider-man.
(Actually, this is true of much of Marvel and DC lately.)
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133317
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Posted: 02 January 2013 at 9:46am | IP Logged | 5
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…why does it seem that the Spidey team has to work so hard to find an interesting 'take' on the character?•• Mostly because Marvel has spent the last forty years or so systematically stripping out the elements which originally made Spider-Man an intesting character: • the angst ridden teenager who escapes from his daily drudgery into the "exciting" world of playing superhero • the outcast/loner who is often painted (erroneously) as the bad guy • the sad sack who "can't get the girl" * • the everyman who is constantly vexed by money-worries and family responsibilities -- a tremendous burden for a teenager! ––––– * Peter Parker is, of course, the "loser" with woman in the Chandler Bing mode; poor devil has a string of gorgeous girlfriends, he just can't seem to hold onto one (tho the next one generally shows up before the previous one's perfume has faded from the air!)
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Michael Todd Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 September 2009 Location: United States Posts: 4115
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Posted: 02 January 2013 at 9:53am | IP Logged | 6
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I had the same problem, I never had a lot of girlfriends, but the ones I did have were way to pretty for a guy like me and I never kept them long.
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Andrew Bitner Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7526
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Posted: 02 January 2013 at 10:16am | IP Logged | 7
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i agree with JB's take on Spider-Man's "evolution" above... but this was the case when Dan Slott took over the book. i don't know, it seems to me Stan Lee was never averse to shaking up titles drastically (bringing two of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants into the Avengers was a ballsy move, IMHO). short of restarting the status quo that was gradually shed through the 70s, which would be fine with me, i'm not sure that anything Slott is doing disrespects Spider-Man or negates his core principles. (hopefully i'm not putting words in anyone's mouth by saying this...) if anything, he IS telling stories about "Spider-Man" that could not be told with Random Character X. the proof will be in the pudding-- will the readers respond positively or not once they see Superior Spider-Man? but that's just me. YMMV.
Edited by Andrew Bitner on 02 January 2013 at 10:18am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133317
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Posted: 02 January 2013 at 10:33am | IP Logged | 8
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i don't know, it seems to me Stan Lee was never averse to shaking up titles drastically (bringing two of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants into the Avengers was a ballsy move, IMHO).•• Not really. We knew from the start that Wanda was a "good girl" who had merely fallen into bad company due to what she perceived as her obligation to Magneto. Pietro, while undoubtedly an arrogant jerk, was also only with the Brotherhood for reasons of loyalty, to Wanda in his case. Neither expressed a particular fondness for Magneto's basic philosophies of conquest and domination. Wanda and Pietro weren't "evil", just "misunderstood" -- among the first in a long line of such heroes!
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Andrew Bitner Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7526
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Posted: 02 January 2013 at 10:37am | IP Logged | 9
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that is a very perceptive statement about what the Marvel Universe public knows/thinks vs what readers know/think-- which is also true of Spider-Man. WE know he's a hero... but when the everyday world of the MU started to think so too, it changed his core dynamic quite a bit.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133317
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Posted: 02 January 2013 at 10:43am | IP Logged | 10
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SO many comics these days are WAY too much about what the readers know, versus what the characters themselves would/should know. The whole abandoning of secret identities, aside from playing to the inherent arrogance of some writers ("Well, if I had these powers, I damn sure wouldn't keep it a secret!") goes directly to this point. I have lost count of the number of times I have gotten into "debates" with some writers who insist "everybody should know by now" who Spider-Man is, or who the X-Men are, etc.But this is the same mentality that thinks superheroes should trip over their capes -- it plays against the central conventions of the form. And plays to the inherent self-loathing of so many ennui-engorged fanboys, who want to sneer at their addictions.
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DW Zomberg Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 June 2012 Posts: 444
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Posted: 02 January 2013 at 11:11am | IP Logged | 11
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Mike Carlin of all people justified Lois Lane figuring out the Superman/Clark Kent connection because her not knowing made her look "stupid." Yeesh.
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Ronald Joseph Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 April 2011 Location: United States Posts: 1784
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Posted: 02 January 2013 at 12:40pm | IP Logged | 12
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If Slott goes ahead with a NuPeter/MJ romance, the entire story is going to become about sexually assaulting MJ and her eventually carving Otto's heart out of his chest with a rusty pairs of scissors and feeding it to him. Which is not what I read comics for...
Or...
Once the Otto/Peter body switch story arc has run its course, watch for the inevitable "Mary Jane is pregnant with a baby she conceived while with The Otto/Peter" and the ensuing moral dilemma of what to do once they find themselves in such a situation.
Will she have an abortion? Will the baby be some hideous mutant menace?? Something even more sinister???
Wait and see, True Believer!
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