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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133334
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Posted: 23 December 2012 at 10:54am | IP Logged | 1
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We know from National experience that prohibition doesn't work. Prohibition with a Capital P failed. The War on Drugs is a failure. Trying to prohibit civilian ownership of guns, especially high-powered assault weapons, is likely to fail as did the other experiments, but at the very least it needs to be TRIED.
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Carmen Bernardo Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 August 2006 Location: United States Posts: 3666
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Posted: 23 December 2012 at 11:25am | IP Logged | 2
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Which brings me to this scene from one of Frank Miller's DK Batman miniseries where Batman is basically saying in response to Superman asking him why he wasn't cooperating with the government (the bad guys in this story): In this world, we have to be criminals. If someone were to try an enforced firearms confiscation drive in the United States (i.e., the "gun-grabbing" feared by so many in the NRA and pro-2nd Amendment groups), I can't see this ending well. "Civil War II", anyone?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133334
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Posted: 23 December 2012 at 11:31am | IP Logged | 3
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I wonder how many of the gun nuts would really cling to their guns if having them removed from their "cold dead hands" was shown to be a real option?I can't see the government doing it, of course, but gun nuts who have armed themselves as a defense AGAINST that government would find themselves quickly in a bad way if the government unleashed its full might against them.
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Thom Price Byrne Robotics Member
LHomme Diabolique
Joined: 29 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7593
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Posted: 23 December 2012 at 12:13pm | IP Logged | 4
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There are two things that I find particularly amusing about the armed guards at every school 'solution'. First, pro-gun advocates tend to be Conservatives who are also staunchly anti-tax. I assume, however, they aren't going gripe when taxes are needed to pay for all of these armed guards?
Second, a gun does not automatically neutralize another gun. Ronald Reagan was surrounded by armed, highly trained Secret Service agents and a lone nut with a gun was still able to shoot him. How are one (or even a couple) armed guards a guarantee of protection for a school with dozens, if not hundreds, of children?
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Marcio Ferreira Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2008 Location: Brazil Posts: 2518
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Posted: 23 December 2012 at 1:01pm | IP Logged | 5
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Brilliant!
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Thom Price Byrne Robotics Member
LHomme Diabolique
Joined: 29 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7593
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Posted: 23 December 2012 at 1:06pm | IP Logged | 6
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Brilliant indeed.
Guns are not the solution to the problem. Guns ARE the problem.
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Eric Ladd Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 August 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 4505
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Posted: 23 December 2012 at 1:27pm | IP Logged | 7
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Thom Price wrote:
How are one (or even a couple) armed guards a guarantee of protection for a school with dozens, if not hundreds, of children? |
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I know your question is rhetorical, Thom. I tend to agree that armed guards won't be a deterrent and would most likely become the first victims of someone intending to do harm. There are armed guards at banks, but banks are robbed. There are armed guards for people, but people are still assassinated. There are so many examples of guards with guns NOT deterring other people with guns that it is hard to believe this is still foisted as a viable solution.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133334
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Posted: 23 December 2012 at 1:35pm | IP Logged | 8
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In our society, there are only two things that kill people when used PROPERLY, guns and tobacco. In the past few decades we have seen a great reduction in the use of the latter, despite all efforts by the huge and powerful tobacco lobby. Most of this was accomplished by pushing what is basically mythology about the dangers of second hand smoke -- the idea that tobacco is dangerous even for people who do not use it.Is the NRA really so much more powerful? Can our "representatives" in Washington really continue to ignore the death toll? They acted against tobacco. They acted against drugs (most of which are far less damaging to society as a whole that tobacco). Once upon a time, they even considered acting against comic books! How big are the NRA's pockets, and how many Senators and Congressmen really fit into them?
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Stephen Robinson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5835
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Posted: 23 December 2012 at 1:43pm | IP Logged | 9
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JB: We know from National experience that prohibition doesn't work. Prohibition with a Capital P failed. The War on Drugs is a failure. Trying to prohibit civilian ownership of guns, especially high-powered assault weapons, is likely to fail as did the other experiments, but at the very least it needs to be TRIED.
SER: I've argued that gun-control advocates could learn something from anti-abortion groups: Chip away at the right and make access difficult while maintaining overall legality (the latter is a great fundraising tool).
If women can submit to transvaginal probes, people can submit to intrusive and lengthy psychological evaluations.
Physical standards should be extensive, as well. It should be more difficult to get a gun permit than it is to get a driver's license.
This is all the lowest hanging fruit. When you think about what we don't have in place, it's incredibly alarming.
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12718
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Posted: 23 December 2012 at 1:44pm | IP Logged | 10
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>>In 1999, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold killed 15 people and wounded 23 more at Columbine High School. The destruction occurred despite the fact that there was an armed security officer at the school and another one nearby -- exactly what LaPierre argued on Friday was the answer to stopping "a bad guy with a gun."
Deputy Neil Gardner was a 15-year veteran of the Jefferson County, Colo., Sheriff’s Office assigned as the uniformed officer at Columbine. According to an account compiled by the police department, Gardner fired on Harris but was unsuccessful in stopping him:
Gardner, seeing Harris working with his gun, leaned over the top of the car and fired four shots. He was 60 yards from the gunman. Harris spun hard to the right and Gardner momentarily thought he had hit him. Seconds later, Harris began shooting again at the deputy. After the exchange of gunfire, Harris ran back into the building. Gardner was able to get on the police radio and called for assistance from other Sheriff’s units. "Shots in the building. I need someone in the south lot with me."
The second officer was Deputy Paul Smoker, a motorcycle patrolman who was near the school writing a speeding ticket. When he heard a dispatch of a woman injured at the high school, he responded. He, too, fired at Harris but didn't stop him.<<
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133334
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Posted: 23 December 2012 at 1:47pm | IP Logged | 11
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"In 1999, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold killed 15 people and wounded 23 more at Columbine High School."And the country was galvanized! And congress was galvanized! And Michael Moore made a movie! And nothing got done.
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Rick Shepherd Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 June 2012 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1095
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Posted: 23 December 2012 at 3:29pm | IP Logged | 12
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Looking up the oft-mentioned loopholes in the previous 'assault weapons ban', two of the most glaring seem to be: 1. The criteria for an 'banned' weapon were mostly arbitrary, and weren't to do with the lethality of the weapon. For example, take two AR-15s, identical in every way, except one has mounts [only] for a bayonet and a flash-suppressor, and the second doesn't - thus the second is perfectly 'legal' for a civilian to own.
2. While the ban affected manufacture/importing of certain firearms, limiting them to government/law enforcement agencies, that was only for new guns - guns already on the market could still be bought/sold, and did nothing about such weapons already owned by civilians.
Frankly, while it's the sort of things that'll have the usual suspects calling it a 'police state' move, the only way for a true assault weapons ban to be effective will be to extend to all variants on such weapons (ideally, anything above hunting rifles, handguns and basic shotguns), as well as making civilian ownership of them illegal. The latter would be particularly tough to enforce, short of a mass-confiscation (the alternative would be a 'gun amnesty', like the 'knife amnesties' here in the UK, though I suspect not many owners would be forthcoming in such a situation), but unless the existing guns fitting the ban's description are seized, the wole effort is self-undermining - or worse, even, if people decide to stock up on ban-affected weapons before the 'deadline'.
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