Posted: 09 November 2012 at 1:40am | IP Logged | 1
Interesting. *My* Batman is a creature of the night, he's broody, he calls Robin "chum", he's a high-tech crimefighter, a detective, someone who can pwn Darkseid four times in a row, he sometimes can get turned into a monkey and wears different-colored outfits to outsmart his opponent. He's also a ninja and sometimes the most skilled fighter in the world. And yes, perhaps even a little bit crazy. He's also Adam West, Christian Bale, Kevin Conroy and, why not? even Lewis Wilson.
He looks great in tights or in state-of-the-art body armor. *My* Batman comes from the minds and hands of Bill Finger, Bob Kane, Dick Sprang, Gardner Fox, Carmine Infantino, Neal Adams, Jim Aparo, Norm Breyfogle, Alan Grant, Denny O'Neil, Frank Miller, Jim Starlin, Ed Brubaker, Frank Quitely, Chris Burnham, Bruce Timm, Paul Dini, Grant Morrison and Christopher Nolan, even though most of those people have barely any similarities between them.
To me, that's what makes Batman great. That he's so many, often contradictory, things. My Batman is goofy and silly; he's also dark and serious. That's why he's my favorite character. I can't think of any other character who can have such extreme, differing interpretations and still work.
And as much as I embrace all of that, I do not like the Post ZH notion that Chill was never captured or killed. It diminishes Batman. He's not out there hunting his parents' killer. He's out there trying to prevent, as much as he can, that the same thing that happened to him happens to someone else.
Joined: 01 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7512
Posted: 09 November 2012 at 8:45am | IP Logged | 3
JB: Much of the psychobabble that has beset our society in recent decades arises from our desperate need to make EXCUSES. No one, it seems, it to be held responsible for their actions. (If the origin of Spider-Man was written today, we would not be told that "With great power must come great responsibility". We would be told that great power is a terrible burden and therefore excuses anything the bearer feels s/he must do to get thru the day.)
"Insanity" -- as noted, a legal term, not a medical one -- is the excuse for so much evil in the world. I prefer, in many cases, the little speech offered by Kirk Douglas' character in THE LIST OF ADRIAN MESSENGER. (Roughly, from memory) "People always want to excuse evil as madness. Napoleon was mad. Hitler was mad. But they're wrong. Evil exists. Evil IS."
***
Absolutely true. The need to lock down answers for absolutely EVERYTHING, and thus rationalize what would be at least *unusual* in our real world, is a great big spear in the side of fantasy. Having Batman be "insane" is weak, not to mention code for "I can't understand why he'd do this so he must be crazy." Ditto the Joker.
Batman is good. He's a hero. The Joker is evil. He's a villain. Do we really need to dig deeper than that?
Posted: 09 November 2012 at 8:59am | IP Logged | 4
It is important, too, that the Joker has (at least traditionally) KNOWN that what he's doing is "evil" -- ie, counter to the polite rules of society -- and he doesn't care. Or even rejoices in it. This is not sociopathic behavior. This is someone who knows what he is, and likes it. And there goes the legal defense of "insanity".
Of course, part of the problem arises from readers who have been around much, much too long. If you were a kid in the Golden or Silver Ages, and therefore the prime target of these stories and characters, you'd read for four or five years and then move on. Just about the time you started wondering why Batman doesn't just push the Joker under a bus and get it over with, you'd have lost interest in even asking the question.
But if you stick around past the "target window", and somehow fail to carry along with you the same acceptance that brought you in in the first place -- and it IS a failure of the consumer, in this case, not of the product -- or if you somehow become a professional in the industry and drag along with you all the questions that would not have been asked if you'd "left" when you were "supposed to"… Well, we pretty much end up where we are.
I go back to my old analogy, of the man who buys a hot sports car in his youth, and then complains, after he's married with a couple of kids, that this same car no longer serves his needs. But he does not seek another car. Instead, he demands that the auto manufacturers change the existing model -- and they do!
Joined: 01 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7512
Posted: 09 November 2012 at 9:09am | IP Logged | 5
Wow. Now *there* is a station wagon for bummed out middle aged dads! :)
And it's dead on. Kids have a better knack for rolling with story logic; adults seem to want more certainty, more things locked down. (At least, that's how it seems.) As you say, JB, when you start to question the very foundations of a genre, it's best to move on.
Joined: 12 May 2006 Location: United States Posts: 15775
Posted: 09 November 2012 at 2:54pm | IP Logged | 6
Interesting. *My* Batman is a creature of the night, he's broody, he calls Robin "chum", he's a high-tech crimefighter, a detective, someone who can pwn Darkseid four times in a row, he sometimes can get turned into a monkey and wears different-colored outfits to outsmart his opponent. He's also a ninja and sometimes the most skilled fighter in the world. And yes, perhaps even a little bit crazy. He's also Adam West, Christian Bale, Kevin Conroy and, why not? even Lewis Wilson.
++++++++++
Mind you, I'm not saying I don't like any other version, or that any other version is not valid. Indeed, I love many of the version you mention above. And Batman is perhaps the most flexible character in comics, and is capable of withstanding a multitude of interpretations.
Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
Posted: 09 November 2012 at 5:59pm | IP Logged | 10
QUOTE:
I go back to my old analogy, of the man who buys a hot sports car in his youth, and then complains, after he's married with a couple of kids, that this same car no longer serves his needs. But he does not seek another car. Instead, he demands that the auto manufacturers change the existing model -- and they do!
Never heard such an analogy like that, but without wishing to appear sycophantic, that's a good analogy. Perhaps it should be nailed to a bulletin board in every lift in every comic building, so that when creators are going up or down in a lift within their buildings, they'll see it.
I suppose you have to play by the rules if you're gonna stick with a certain fiction. I still quite like SCOOBY-DOO and am usually first in line at the rental store when a new SCOOBY-DOO feature-length episode is released on DVD, but I don't expect it to be any different to the SCOOBY-DOO I grew up with. I don't want it gritty, I don't want Fred or Shaggy married or any psychobabble. In fact, I want it to be the same for one important reason, which I'll post below.
SO THAT THE YOUNG FOLK OF TODAY WHO VIEW IT WILL GET THE SAME KICK OUT OF IT THAT I DID WHEN I WAS THEIR AGE.
If anything, I think it's selfish if, to stick with Mr Byrne's auto analogy, you have people who expect the industry or product to change to suit you. That is, in my view, conceited and arrogant.
Joined: 26 February 2005 Location: United States Posts: 1235
Posted: 09 November 2012 at 7:26pm | IP Logged | 11
I agree with JB. "Insanity" is a legal term that means the person cannot be held accountable for their actions because they lack the mental capacity to know what consequences their actions have. Lots of people can be "mad" and not be insane.
In fact, lots of people have had mental illnesses and been extraordinarily productive and influential. Winston Churchill is said to have suffered from depression. Albert Einstein had a nervous breakdown. Charles Darwin was a hypochondriac and possibly agoraphobic. Florence Nightingale suffered from extreme anxiety and was bedridden much of her life. The list of artists, writers, and musicians who were mentally disturbed is too numerous to mention.
Batman has never displayed anything like this. So not only is he not insane, he doesn't even meet any definition of mad.
Joined: 04 December 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 3586
Posted: 10 November 2012 at 3:44am | IP Logged | 12
The Batman that I grew up with was anything but insane. He was totally cool and rational. The world's greatest detective. Capable of extricating himself from situations that would have been impossible for an ordinary man; only due to the training he had given himself since childhood. How could anyone that disciplined be insane?
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