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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 08 November 2012 at 6:33am | IP Logged | 1  

I like most of Alan Moore's work, but his comments about Batman are absurd. He points out that people don't react to child-hood trauma like witnessing their parents being killed by turning into a bat-themed vigilante. No shit! People don't react to lethal doses of radiation and get fooled by pair of glasses as a disguise either. It's so trite and agenda driven, isn't it? These fans and creators get the conventions, they just can't fully accept them. Fess up.

••

Perhaps my favorite "motif" in writing is "things are not as they seem". There is a very fine line, however, between this and "everything you know is a lie".

Too many writers, in recent vintage, have gone for the latter approach. Batman, for decades, is a well-adjusted, logical, good-humored friend to the people of Gotham. He's even a devoted "father". But along come the "angry young men" and this must get turned on its head. Dedication must become obsession. Humor is disallowed. And all families, of course, must be dysfunctional!!

Thing is, while the "old school" may get, well, boring after a while, the "new school" is a dead end. And since the "old school" was aimed at an audience that was supposed to read for a few years and then find other things to occupy its interest, "boring" was not an issue. In fact, "boring" was the cue to move on, not to tear the house down.

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Robert White
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Posted: 08 November 2012 at 6:41am | IP Logged | 2  

What amuses me is that there was an overlap--on one had you had creators and fans asserting that Batman was crazy yet he was still a deputized law enforcer and actually had access to the GCPD police files. Now, does this sound like a reality where the rules work like our own? 

These worlds are "kinda" like our own. Even Marvel. On one hand technical prowess is vastly superior (Doom, Richards, Luthor, etc) yet the populace, and even most of the major characters, are far more naive and trusting to balance it all out. 
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Kip Lewis
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Posted: 08 November 2012 at 4:17pm | IP Logged | 3  

Posted: 07 November 2012 at 11:03am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

I have often said the best definition of Batman is to be found in an
opening scene in THE PRESIDENT'S ANALYST.

Godfrey Cambridge, as a secret service agent assigned to undergo
therapy as part of checking out James Coburn's Park Avenue shrink,
before the latter is confirmed for the title job, tells of a trauma that
occurred when he was attending school for the first time. In the
process he reveals that he has just killed a double agent, out on the
streets of New York, and that when he stabbed that man to death, the
victim was everyone who had ever caused Cambridge's character any
grief.

Coburn's character immediately realizes THIS is why Cambridge's
character is so well-adjusted. He doesn't really need therapy, because
he can vent all his anger and frustration by going out and actually
KILLING somebody. And his doing so is fully sanctified by the
authorities.

Batman doesn't KILL people, but he does satisfy his graveside oath to
his parents every night, in a variety of ways. No reason, then, for him
to feel "driven" or to be "crazy". And, as Frank Miller indicated (and so
many people completely missed!) he was driven crazy when he retired,
and thus violated that oath.

A Batman who is out On The Job is a completely SANE Batman!

------------------------

Funny thing is, I read that and thought: that's how I would define an
insane (or a person with mental issues.) People who need to use
violence to vent anger; even when sanctioned by the government,
aren't mentally healthy. A person who cannot retire and find a new
way to keep his oath has mental issues.

I wouldn't say they are insane like the Joker, but that's not mentally
healthy. But I'm not a professional psychologist, so I could be wrong.
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Joe Hollon
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Posted: 08 November 2012 at 5:37pm | IP Logged | 4  

This guy is obviously insane!!!!!


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Mike Norris
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Posted: 08 November 2012 at 7:03pm | IP Logged | 5  

I'll say. Where are their helmets and kneepads?!!!!
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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 08 November 2012 at 7:45pm | IP Logged | 6  

This is why I still think the Adam West Batman is closest to *my* Batman. Yes, I wish the comedy and knowing winks (especially after the first season) had been toned down, but I find those extremes as odious as the extremes of the Burton and Nolan Batmans (specifically the final two films).

I like Batman and Robin as the idealized father and son. I like a Batman who is having FUN because that's why I'm reading the comic. If I wanted to read about a crazy person, I'd pick up Camus's The Stranger.

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Thomas Moudry
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Posted: 08 November 2012 at 8:09pm | IP Logged | 7  

Batman is fine; writers and editors are insane.
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Mike Norris
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Posted: 08 November 2012 at 8:38pm | IP Logged | 8  


 QUOTE:
Funny thing is, I read that and thought: that's how I would define an 
insane (or a person with mental issues.) People who need to use 
violence to vent anger; even when sanctioned by the government, 
aren't mentally healthy. A person who cannot retire and find a new 
way to keep his oath has mental issues.

I wouldn't say they are insane like the Joker, but that's not mentally 
healthy. But I'm not a professional psychologist, so I could be wrong.
I'm of the opinion the ultraviolent Batman we see all too often isn't true to the character. Violence as a last resort is more in keeping with the Batman I prefer.
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Kip Lewis
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Posted: 08 November 2012 at 9:59pm | IP Logged | 9  

I'm of the opinion the ultraviolent Batman we see all too often isn't
true to the character. Violence as a last resort is more in keeping with
the Batman I prefer.
---------------------

But that's a big issue; there different Batmans, even before the
80srest insane Batman. If you prefer the original, he killed and we felt
his pulp roots. 50s/60s Batman was lighter. 70s Batman wasn't
intense grim Batman of the 80s, but he was more serious than 60s
version. (Or maybe it was art that made him feel more serious.)
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David Plunkert
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Posted: 08 November 2012 at 10:28pm | IP Logged | 10  

I doubt any writer would bother to think that Robin Hood, Zorro, or the Lone Ranger are insane.

Batman is unfortunately not allowed as much distance in regards to the universe he inhabits....with the exception of the Timm cartoons.


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Mike Norris
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Posted: 08 November 2012 at 10:30pm | IP Logged | 11  

My Batman would be the 60s and 70s version. 
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 08 November 2012 at 11:01pm | IP Logged | 12  

I'm very tired of this whole "Batman is insane" thing.

Recently I listened to two Bat-themed Podcasts. One was a review of THE UNTOLD LEGEND OF THE BATMAN, and the other was a 2 1/2 hour condemnation of Nolan's THE DARK KNIGHT.

I strongly agreed with the majority of the points made in both Podcasts.

"My" Batman is very much the version from the 70s and early 80s, who carefully (though not always successfully) treaded the line between goofy and grim--the guy from THE ANIMATED SERIES, essentially.

A creature of the night, but not too brooding. A detective, but not a supergenius who could beat Darkseid if he had enough time to plan. A highly-skilled fighter, but not a master of every known style of combat. A self-made hero who studied psychology and criminology, not spooky, ninja-crap up in the mountains.

And not crazy. Nor a ninja. Nor a superhero (in the sense that he has "powers" which make him the very best thinker on Earth, the very best fighter on Earth, etc.)

"My" Batman origin is very much the UNTOLD LEGEND version (which, of course, consolidated and recapped some of the best Batman stories of all time, including his confrontation with Joe Chill).

 

Post-ZERO HOUR, they tried to use the idea that the Waynes' killer was still unknown and at large, but that doesn't work for me. I think that Batman's encounter with Chill is a pivotal moment in the character's life.

And, as a kid, I never--not once--questioned why Bruce would continue to be Batman after he finally faced his parents' killer. And I still don't question it. The Batman is a HERO. He goes out and does the right thing each night because it's the right thing to do. Sure, his tragic origin is fertile ground for exploring the psychological complexities of the character, but too many writers have taken it too far.

His parents' murder was an inciting incident, yes, but I feel Batman is "driven" by a need for justice. I've never been comfortable with the idea that he's all about revenge.

 

My personal belief is that, at his most fundamental core, Batman is a guy who just wants to make sure that no other children ever have to go through what he did.

 

Too many writers emphasize the negative. He's obsessed. He's driven. He's crazy. He wants revenge.

They should be emphasizing the positive, instead. He's a hero. He does the right thing.  He's a brilliant detective. He's dedicated to justice and protecting the innocent.

 

And, of course, the film versions keep swinging from one extreme to the other--from goofy, campy parody to dark, violent, and joyless.

 

"My" Batman is not goofy, nor is he joyless.



Edited by Greg Kirkman on 08 November 2012 at 11:06pm
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