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Topic: "wasted" double page spreads? (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 25 October 2012 at 9:13am | IP Logged | 1  

I found myself pondering this topic a bit more as I sat at the drawing board this morning. (No, I wasn't working on a double page spread!)

When I was getting into comics, lo these many years ago, the rage was all for "cinematic" storytelling. What this meant was, basically, wasting whole pages on actions that should have been handled in one panel. Somebody walking down a street, for instance. Or running down a subway platform. The panels became "frames" of film, with the action progressing only slightly from one to the next.*

(And, yes, I know a few years back we got a whole page of some character falling out of bed! "Cinematic" is sometimes called "decompressed" these days, it seems!)

These wasteful double page spreads seem almost like the flipside of "cinematic" storytelling. Like a freeze-frame that goes on too long.

–––––

* The cosmic balance for this was to be found in those writers who would ask for multiple actions from a single character IN ONE PANEL! That was how those multiple-figure shots I used to do of Iron Fist evolved.

(At a convention, when I was working on FF, a fan asked me why I never seemed to do that kind of shot anymore. "I'm not working with Claremont any more!" quipped I!)

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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

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Posted: 25 October 2012 at 9:15am | IP Logged | 2  

Plus, Dick looks like he's 'running on air', if that makes sense.

••

Hey, I'm a big fan of SOME characters "running on air"!

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Darren Taylor
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Posted: 25 October 2012 at 10:36am | IP Logged | 3  

I love that AF#12 DPS.

I think there are a number of examples where a DPS is nothing short of frivolous!
There are many instances in films where time is 'stopped' or frozen for impact. The DPS is a similar situation. Every panel describes a moment in time. If there is a ten page story that has an average of 6 panels per page, it has 60 panels to describe the events of the story.
The loss of one fifth of the panel count for any single instance, needs to be carfully considered, because now you are telling the same story in only 48 panels, all be it with one high impact one;)

Back to AF#12, when I saw this image for the first time it blew me away! I love those pages above -all- others, to this day. That's all others of -any- comic! It is possible to look at each panel as nothing more than a single opportunity to drive the story forward but another way to look at them is how they create space or present the opportunity for the reader to experience those moments while they look at the picture.

It's the graphic quality of the panels side by side that can subliminaly manipulate our reading experience. The regular nature of the panels present us with an expectation of what is on the next page and when we turn the page and it's a black full page with a single panel on it, we are moved to feel more than before. (The FF page John mentions)

The DPS is, as is all larger format panels an opportunity to do something purposeful, entertaining, wonderous, meaningful. It is when it's used as an opportunity to add a zero on the end of the $$$ for the original art that it is a waste.It's also a waste if it doesn't leave you moved in some way. At the very least a DPS should have you thinking, "Yeah!"

----

As an aside for this, I think that the DPS and the 'paneled' DPS are two diferent beasts. Cousins but diferent.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 25 October 2012 at 11:06am | IP Logged | 4  

As an aside for this, I think that the DPS and the 'paneled' DPS are two diferent beasts. Cousins but diferent.

••

There IS a limitation in the terminology. Anything that crosses the fold is considered a "spread", but not all are fully "double page spreads" in the sense being used here.

Now that you all know about THE HIGH WAYS, let me share an example of me trying to use pages 2 and 3 to maximum advantage. Fear not, no spoilers!

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Darren Taylor
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Posted: 25 October 2012 at 11:41am | IP Logged | 5  

This raises another point about a single panel/DPS and the progress of a story.

Take the second tier single panel in your fabulous panelled-DPS John.

You have in a single panel eaten through 7 points of dialogue and we 'pressume' the amount of time taken to walk a section of the corridor.
So, even though it appears on a DPS it still appears as a single panel and conveys a lot! So it on it's own could have appeared as the DPS and -still- been succesful. The fact that it appears in this format, diminishes it, not at all! Instead I feel that I'm really paying equal respect/attention to each section of this page.

The other thing I note hear (in iterest) is that the panels go through 26 points of dialogue and the 1/3'd splash only three despite really having the lion's-share of the page. (This is all very educational!)

PS. I love the way you have continued the left-to-right motion throughout this page.

PPS. Great faces on these by-the-way!
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John Byrne
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Posted: 25 October 2012 at 11:55am | IP Logged | 6  

I love the way you have continued the left-to-right motion throughout this page.

••

Thanks! This is perhaps something worth touching upon a bit more.

An important storytelling rule that was pounded into my pointy little head early on (for which, thanks to Marty Pasko) is NEVER CROSS THE 180° LINE! (What's the 180° line? Think of it as the flat surface of the page -- a surface that bisects every image -- even in the real world! -- at 90° to the observer's line of sight.)

Like all such "absolute" rules, there are occasions when flipping the viewpoint from one panel to the next CAN work, and even be effective -- but it takes a particular level of skill to accomplish it! Skill I, for one, do not pretend to have!

A very BAD example of crossing the 180° line occurred in a book I read way, way back, not long after I got into the Biz. Two characters are walking, facing right, talking. In the next panel, one of the characters, a woman, is facing left in a closeup on just her. The effect was as if her twin sister had burst into the room and was interrupting the conversation.

So, yeah, in general it's best to keep the "flow" going in the same direction, panel to panel (unless, of course, the characters ACTUALLY change direction!)*

________

* And there we can run into a whole 'nother problem -- when artists have characters change direction but ALSO have their "camera" cross the 180° line, so that it's hard to tell the characters HAVE changed direction!

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Darren Taylor
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Posted: 25 October 2012 at 12:05pm | IP Logged | 7  

Avoiding 'crossing the line' is in my day-to-day job.

I have oft heard/read it's use in comic book's as unjustified, with reasons such as, being too restrictive and leading to boring set-ups-or- deliveries.

I've never seen how this could be true.

Which is why I enjoy seeing it used to such fabulous effect as above.

-D

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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 25 October 2012 at 12:05pm | IP Logged | 8  

 Every single thing in comics should serve one purpose. IMO the most important thing is storytelling. To that end if it doesn't serve the story it is a waste of time. It doesn't matter if you are the greatest artist in the world if you need to sacrifice that awesome DPS to tell story thats what you should do. 

A good example 'The Highways' that  John shows. As good as JB is as an artist he didn't make this spread one big pin-up shot. Storytelling is the most important element. IMO This is a perfect example of how it should be done.

Also i'd like to add thou John is more than capable of doing an amazing pin-up. He doesn't he doesn't just sacrifice the story in order to say hey look at what I can do.


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John Byrne
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Posted: 25 October 2012 at 12:28pm | IP Logged | 9  

Also i'd like to add thou John is more than capable of doing an amazing pin-up. He doesn't he doesn't just sacrifice the story in order to say hey look at what I can do.

••

Generally, I don't like doing Pin-Ups. It's one of the reasons I'm not crazy about "symbolic" covers (as opposed to representational), and one of the reasons it took Jim Warden so long to convince me to start doing commissions.

Of course, in the latter case, once I DID start, I quickly (like, with the very first one) discovered a commission is really a whole 'nother kind of beast, since it has to tell a STORY in a single image.

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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 25 October 2012 at 12:34pm | IP Logged | 10  

Dan Jurgen's work on the Death of Superman story. I thought what a great challenge it must have been to tell the final comic in a series of one panel splash pages and DPS.  It's been a few years since i've seen it but I thought what a good job he did.
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Trevor Smith
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Posted: 25 October 2012 at 4:09pm | IP Logged | 11  

"Hey, I'm a big fan of SOME characters "running on air"!"

**

One of the few times I'll perk up in my chair and think
"Boring!", and mean it in a good way!
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Chad Carter
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Posted: 25 October 2012 at 4:53pm | IP Logged | 12  


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