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Topic: "Marvel Comics, The Untold Story" (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Neil Brauer
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Posted: 11 October 2012 at 5:49pm | IP Logged | 1  

Gerber -- The Headmen -- I loved them!

Regarding Shooter.  I agree that he fixed Marvel, and I'm proud of JB for saying that.  I know there was no love lost there.  I can also see what JB means by "he had to keep fixing it." 

I think he was too young for that position.  I've known a few people that came to positions of "power", or at least perceived power, that were capable, but lacked the maturity and people skills to be successful in the long term.  It seems like Shooter may have been the messenger of bad tidings, so he got blamed for everything.  I also think he may have delivered those bad tidings in an "Ior else" way.  Not the best approach.  JB was there, he would know much better than I.

Long story short -- I like comics much more when Shooter was running Marvel than the last 20-ish years, for the most part.  BUT, I didn't have to work WITH Shooter, which I understand was very difficult.

I feel sympathy for Jim Shooter.  Maybe I shouldn't, but I do.

 

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Leigh DJ Hunt
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 5:10am | IP Logged | 2  

Can anyone who has the book tell me if there's many photographs in there OR much art/covers etc of the books in question?

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John Byrne
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 5:38am | IP Logged | 3  

Howard first appeared in Fear #19... a typically random, off-the-wall idea Gerber threw into the story. Since there was little-to-no editorial oversight, Roy Thomas did not even read the story until it was finished and about to be published, at which point it was too late to make changes. When he did read it, Thomas thought that the Howard character was too silly for a series like Man-Thing, and ordered Gerber to kill the character off in the next story (which was in Man-Thing #1). Gerber did so, but fan reaction resulted in him being resurrected. It stands to reason that if they'd had a more conventional editorial structure (with each stage of the work being approved by Thomas) then Howard would have been removed from that first story before it ever saw publication.

••

Still not sure what you're imagining was going on there. Do you think Gerber had big plans for Howard? That he intended to keep him around in the new MAN-THING title, perhaps as a wise-cracking "Tonto" to Man-Thing's "Lone Ranger"?

Marvel obviously saw some possible potential in the Duck, or it would have been easy enough for them to ignore the fan response. After all, we're not talking about a massive groundswell that shook the industry to its very roots.

HOWARD THE DUCK was a fun little book -- I enjoyed it. I even auditioned for the art gig! -- but not the colossal mega-hit that legend has made it. It lasted 31 issues, which was pretty respectable for such an odd concept, but it was always a fringe title, what used to be called a cult book (before the DSM turned pretty much ALL titles into cult books). It limped along, and those who liked it liked it, those who didn't, ignored it.

As far as the editorial situation -- as always at Marvel, that was catch-as-catch-can. Roy Thomas, as noted, was EiC when Howard first showed up in a MAN-THING story, but it was Marv Wolfman who okayed the Duck getting his own title. The history of the Duck is less dependent upon the DEGREE of editorial oversight, than it is on WHO was doing the editing.

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Robert White
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 5:55am | IP Logged | 4  

I've read a few times from Steve Englehart that as soon as Marvel finally overtook DC in sales in the early 70's, that Stan Lee called a meeting basically telling the assembled editors and creators to tone down on innovation and "stay the course." I've always wondered what was specifically said in this meeting. 

Englehart has also stated that sometime around 1988, Marvel decided that any kind of innovation was bad and start to revert many or most of their franchises to older forms. He went so far as to stop using his real name and went with a pseudonym for the rest of his FF run.   


Edited by Robert White on 12 October 2012 at 5:56am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 5:57am | IP Logged | 5  

I've read a few times from Steve Englehart as soon as Marvel finally overtook DC in sales in the early 70's, that Stan Lee called a meeting basically telling the assembled editors and creators to tone down on innovation and "stay the course." I've always wondered what was specifically said in this meeting.

Englehart has also stated that sometime around 1988, Marvel decided that any kind of innovation was bad and start to revert many or most of their franchises to older forms. He went so far as to stop using his real name and went with a pseudonym for the rest of his FF run.

••

I guess I didn't get that memo.

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John OConnor
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 6:25am | IP Logged | 6  

@ Leigh DJ Hunt


it's all text

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Robert Bradley
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 7:45am | IP Logged | 7  

Can anyone who has the book tell me if there's many photographs in there OR much art/covers etc of the books in question?

*  *  *  *  *  *  *

There's only one picture in the book, it's one of Stan & Jack in the 1960's.

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Leigh DJ Hunt
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 7:56am | IP Logged | 8  

Oh, that's slightly disappointing but I'll still get it anyway.

 

Thanks  for the replies.

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David Plunkert
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 8:37am | IP Logged | 9  

Clipped from The Comics Journal #63

Englehart said:Well, just "don't be so bizarre. try not to progress so fast." There's that famous meeting that happened before the quitting time when Stan said, "I don't want progress; I want the illusion of progress now. We don't want people dying and coming out of the strips, we don't want new girlfriends, we want to try to keep it the same." 

iii

I'd suppose this is after the backlash of Gwen Stacy's death.
For instance: I doubt Stan cared if Hawkeye disappeared from the Avengers for a stretch but he didn't want him killed during a fake Kree invasion created by an insane Scarlet Witch and then come back to life as a ninja master etc.
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Steven Legge
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 8:41am | IP Logged | 10  

The author probably couldn't get the rights to all the pics for the book but he has been posting some on his tumblr page. (Including a Punisher pic by Zeck incorrectly attributed to JRJr. I tried bringing it to his attention but its still wrong. I never wrote a book on the history of marvel, so what do I know.)
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Pete York
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 11:41am | IP Logged | 11  


 QUOTE:
Englehart said:Well, just "don't be so bizarre. try not to progress so fast." There's that famous meeting that happened before the quitting time when Stan said, "I don't want progress; I want the illusion of progress now. We don't want people dying and coming out of the strips, we don't want new girlfriends, we want to try to keep it the same."

So, yeah, what's the problem? "Illusion of change." Something John has said here before. It could be in this board's mission statement. You take on these characters as a writer, you're a caretaker not an owner. Leave them as close as possible to the way you found them. I know that sounds just vile to brilliant creative types--stagnant, boring, conservative, you're shackling my genius!--but that's tough. Stan saying 'no new girlfriends' sounds odd, though, if true.
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David Plunkert
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 12:02pm | IP Logged | 12  

Pete York said: Stan saying 'no new girlfriends' sounds odd, though, if true.

iii

He probably overstated his case in an effort to make the writers consider if a change was too drastic before they did them. If you're worried that Stan wouldn't want Jane Foster to date Tony Stark you're definitely not going to push her in front of a train.

Stan might have also been echoing feedback he was getting from potential licensees...he was new in the publisher's chair then.
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