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Robert White
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4560
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| Posted: 13 January 2013 at 2:41pm | IP Logged | 1
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I think the reaction to Kirby around the time the New Gods ended had a lot to do with the rise of Neal Adams's style and other similar artists coming into the field. I myself didn't "get" Kirby when I started reading comics and flat out didn't like his style. Watching a recent Kirby documentary, I noticed that it seemed to be split on who liked Kirby and who didn't when they first encountered him. (Walt Simonson and Barry Smith loved him, while Neal Adams and a few others didn't initially.)
I of course have completely reversed my positions and now view him as one of the greatest artists and stylists to ever work in the medium, rivaled only by the likes of Eisner, Moebius and a few others.
This being said, I agree that Kirby benefited greatly from the "sharpness" Lee brought to the dialog and the overall emotional tone of the comics. |
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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4623
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| Posted: 13 January 2013 at 4:58pm | IP Logged | 2
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David Miller wrote:
| As a kid I though it was cool when creators switched companies. I wonder I fans got mad at Neal Adams for his X-Men run. |
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Adams didn't leave DC to work for Marvel, however; he was working for both companies concurrently. The year he drew X-Men he was also the regular artist for The Brave and the Bold, and continued to draw many covers for DC.
As a kid I didn't like it when a creator I liked left a title I liked, regardless of whether it was because they were switching companies or just switching to another assignment for the same company. I wouldn't say I got "mad" but I felt disappointed when it happened.
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David Plunkert
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2012
Posts: 536
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| Posted: 13 January 2013 at 11:25pm | IP Logged | 3
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I of course have completely reversed my positions and now view him as one of the greatest artists and stylists to ever work in the medium, rivaled only by the likes of Eisner, Moebius and a few others.
iiii
Robert, hopefully my opinions on why Kirby was denied extra compensation won't be confused with my evaluation of his work. Kirby is by far my favorite comic book artist and I count him as a major influence.
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Joel Tesch
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 May 2006
Posts: 2830
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| Posted: 14 January 2013 at 9:39am | IP Logged | 4
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I don't disagree but isn't that kind of what DC did? They hyped Kirby is Coming!, gave him his own little corner of the universe to create, and it didn't translate into sales. We all look back and realize that it was great stuff but there was no appreciation at the time. When Jack returned to Marvel, the creativity was still there but the sales weren't. To some, it probably looked like Kirby needed Lee to sell comics. Hard to argue with that, isn't it?
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Peter Hicks
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 1969
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| Posted: 14 January 2013 at 10:38am | IP Logged | 5
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JB - When the news broke that you were leaving Marvel to revamp Superman, was the reaction from Marvel corporate-type staffers one of hostility, or did they wish you well hoping you might come back one day?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133330
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| Posted: 14 January 2013 at 11:14am | IP Logged | 6
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JB - When the news broke that you were leaving Marvel to revamp Superman, was the reaction from Marvel corporate-type staffers one of hostility, or did they wish you well hoping you might come back one day? First, remember that I was not originally leaving Marvel. I had already planned to scale back on the FF, doing the writing only, with the possibility of John Romita Jr taking on the art. I intended to continue working on Marvel books at the same time I handled what was expected to be a single Superman title. Mike Hobson, then head of Publishing, wished me luck. He said he thought this would be good for DC, "and anything that good for DC will be good for the industry, and so good for Marvel." Shooter, meanwhile, ordered massive rewriting and redrawing of the return of Jean Grey issue of FANTASTIC FOUR -- an issue he had approved in full just a few weeks before. And THAT was when I realized I would have no choice but to leave Marvel.
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Fred J Chamberlain
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 August 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 4036
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| Posted: 14 January 2013 at 11:17am | IP Logged | 7
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Just got ahold of both Origins of Marvel Comics as well as Sons of
Origins. Looking forward to the nostalgia of revisiting these volumes as
well as reading Stan's reflections, since I avoided those pages when
first coming into contact with the books. Between this, Dan Dare
volumes, various fiction and non-fiction works and original art leads that
I find here...... this place is killing my bank account!!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133330
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| Posted: 14 January 2013 at 11:53am | IP Logged | 8
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... this place is killing my bank account!! You're welcome!
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Greg Woronchak
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 September 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 1631
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| Posted: 14 January 2013 at 12:34pm | IP Logged | 9
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Just got ahold of both Origins of Marvel Comics as well as Sons of
Origins
Bring on the Bad Guys and Greatest Super-Hero Battles are worth getting as well (sorry <g>).
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Fred J Chamberlain
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 August 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 4036
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| Posted: 14 January 2013 at 12:35pm | IP Logged | 10
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I remember the first as well as the Women of Marvel book. I'll likely track down these two as time goes on.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133330
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| Posted: 14 January 2013 at 1:50pm | IP Logged | 11
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the Women of Marvel book THE SUPERHERO WOMEN -- one of the all-time clumsy titles!!
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 14 January 2013 at 2:03pm | IP Logged | 12
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JB: I had already planned to scale back on the FF, doing the writing only, with the possibility of John Romita Jr taking on the art. I intended to continue working on Marvel books at the same time I handled what was expected to be a single Superman title.
SER: If I could only invent "sliding" technology so I could visit the parallel universe with a Byrne/JRjr FF run!
Regarding Superman, it occurs to me how fans usually refer to the '60s-era Superman as the "Weisinger" Superman and the '70s-era Superman as the "Schwartz" version. However, fans will refer to the character you worked on as the "JB" or "Man of Steel" Superman. My point with this is that it felt like DC putting a toe in the water -- the changes are all connected to one artist and essentially one run, and once the artist leaves, the changes could leave with him. It would seem to me that if DC's intent was to overhaul Superman, it needed to put editorial full support behind it -- no one thinks of the late '80s version of Superman as the Helfer or Carlin-era Superman.
(Unfortunately and with all respect to Carlin, what I think of as his "mark" on the character is the "triangle" concept, in which the books were essentially weekly... and very frustrating to read as back issues. In fact, I revisit them rarely for this reason. What I loved about the book when JB was on it was that each title had its own "feel.")
****
JB: Mike Hobson, then head of Publishing, wished me luck. He said he thought this would be good for DC, "and anything that good for DC will be good for the industry, and so good for Marvel."
Shooter, meanwhile, ordered massive rewriting and redrawing of the return of Jean Grey issue of FANTASTIC FOUR -- an issue he had approved in full just a few weeks before.
SER: Shooter is a fascinating character. Whenever I read his account of events, I'm not sure if he's lying to others or actually lying to himself. Though I suppose it's all academic as you're ultimately being lied to.
He seems to lack the self-awareness to concede that such a strong negative reaction toward him and his actions by a variety of people can't translate into "I was a good man, good boss, who never made any mistakes." At least concede that mistakes were made, that there were things you regret, even if your overall intentions were benign.
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