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Topic: "Marvel Comics, The Untold Story" (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 12 January 2013 at 8:13pm | IP Logged | 1  

I believe that creative types, like Kirby, should be held to a higher standard by corporations.

According to the "Jack the Hack" stories, Kirby wasn't even held in high regard by some of his peers during his second tenure at Marvel so asking the corporation to hold him in high regard would be almost impossible. I don't think anyone commenting on this thread doesn't wish that things could have been a little better for Jack Kirby but I don't believe that Disney/Marvel cares enough about it's comic books to care about giving anyone credit or monetary compensation for what they did. They care about what kind of money the comics bring in and that's about it.

Think of the great talents that have worked at Marvel over the years and how they've been treated by the company. The disrespect shown to JB by Joe Q and Jemas (throw in Tom Brevoort as well) is something we all know about, Chris Claremont was run off the X-Men, Jim Starlin and others have been disrespected by the company. Asking them to acknowledge that someone besides Quesada, Bendis, or any of the current "big name" creators at Marvel had something to do with Marvel's success will ultimately fall on deaf ears.



Edited by Shawn Kane on 12 January 2013 at 8:18pm
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Robert White
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Posted: 12 January 2013 at 9:25pm | IP Logged | 2  


 QUOTE:
To him comics weren't some art form, they were a product his company churned out every month.  And the subsequent owners really didn't have any personal connection with Kirby, why would they care about an unhappy artist if there were others that they could replace him with at the drop of a hat?  They weren't interested in Marvel because Jack Kirby or Steve Ditko worked there, they wanted to get their hands on the established properties.

I get all this. I really do. My point is that when you really think about the implications of all this, the only conclusion is that Martin Goodman, and the people that bought Marvel from him, weren't all that bright . Sure, they were good at manipulating the system in place to varying degrees, but to be so oblivious and ignorant of the creative process? I can't fathom this. Even if it's just a product to YOU as a business man, it seems to me that if certain creators show a penchant for creating cash-cows, this would get my attention and I might be inclined to treat them better than the assembly-line guys working for Bob Kane.  

Let's say that Marvel decided to give Kirby what he was looking for in 1969 in some alternate reality. They acknowledged his contributions and this was the start of an era of greater creator rights. Isn't it possible that Marvel would have stood to have made even more money down the line with a content and endlessly inventive Kirby in their ranks? Hell, Kirby probably would have been content sans royalties and merchandising. Who knows?

I get that most of the groups that owned comic companies, certainly in the past, were locusts that could care less about "art." They wanted to consume as much as possible, make as much money as possible, before they died. That being said, I don't think it would have exactly taken a visionary of transcendent brilliance to grasp Kirby's worth. 
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John Byrne
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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 5:56am | IP Logged | 3  

This sort of goes back to comments JB has made about "voting with your wallet." Fans will eagerly post on message boards about how Kirby, Ditko, Cockrum and others were not given their proper share but they still flocked to see THE AVENGERS, AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, and X-MEN and, more directly, buy the current books.

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To bring that closer to home, think about sales of original art. How many times have we seen, say, a Dave Cockrum X-MEN page sell for tens of thousands of dollars, when Dave himself sold it decades ago for hundreds at best. Whenever the suggestion is raised that it would be "nice" if artists continues to reap some benefits from resale of their work, there is an instant backlash. "They got what they deserved in the first place!" And, of course, there are those who will tell you that if they bought a piece of art for $100 and later sold it for $1000, and were "forced" to give 10% to the original artist, they, the seller, would have "lost" $100 in the deal.

Often the people who make these complaints are the same ones who think Marvel and DC should pony up the money they "owe" people like Kirby and Ditko, etc. Very generous with corporate money, those people, but keep your sticky fingers out of THEIR wallets!!

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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 6:47am | IP Logged | 4  

That being said, I don't think it would have exactly taken a visionary of transcendent brilliance to grasp Kirby's worth. 

I don't disagree but isn't that kind of what DC did? They hyped Kirby is Coming!, gave him his own little corner of the universe to create, and it didn't translate into sales. We all look back and realize that it was great stuff but there was no appreciation at the time. When Jack returned to Marvel, the creativity was still there but the sales weren't. To some, it probably looked like Kirby needed Lee to sell comics. 

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Robert Bradley
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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 7:53am | IP Logged | 5  

Kirby's creations at DC and Marvel later on in his career (the New Gods, Kamandi, OMAC, the Demon, etc at DC and the Eternals, Devil Dinosaur, Machine Man, etc. at Marvel) had some interesting elements to them but he desperately needed a scripter and/or strong editorial hand.

And some Kirby fans need to realize that comic books were (and still are) a product first and foremost, not an art exhibit.  Whether its Vince Colletta's shortcuts to get a book out on schedule or Al Plastino or Murphy Anderson re-drawing Superman to keep him on model, these things were done because the two most important things at the time to publishers were keeping on schedule and maintaining consistency in the art and stories.

Personally, I am a big fan of Kirby's work up to about 1968, but not as big a fan of the work after that.   He had some interesting ideas, but in many instances his work would have been better-served to have had a strong collaborator like he did in Stan Lee earlier.

All I can tell you is that as a young kid I didn't have any interest in his DC work, but when he returned to Marvel I liked the Eternals and Machine Man, but didn't like his work on Captain America and Black Panther (the lack of a smooth transition following Steve Englehart and Don McGregor's work on those characters didn't help).  At the same time I was buying up all the reprints of the old Lee/Kirby work on the X-Men, Avengers, Fantastic Four, Thor and Captain America that I could find and loving it all.



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John Byrne
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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 9:15am | IP Logged | 6  

I don't disagree but isn't that kind of what DC did? They hyped Kirby is Coming!, gave him his own little corner of the universe to create, and it didn't translate into sales. We all look back and realize that it was great stuff but there was no appreciation at the time.

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"No sense of history" lies at the very core of this whole debate. The Past being judged by the standards of the Present.

Hard as it is to accept, Kirby's star was on the wane when he went to DC to do the Fourth World books. (He also entered a very hostile work environment, which didn't help.) By the time he returned to Marvel, there was a substantial body of fandom who were actively dismissive not only of his current work, but of his whole cannon. Many was the time, at conventions, when someone would ask me who my favorite artists were, and mentioning Kirby (and Ditko) elicited much pantomiming of gagging and puking. Really.

Often I've said one of the GOOD things the Image boys did was adopting Kirby as their "mascot" (so they could pretend they had been "mistreated" as he had been), and thus forcing their fans to acknowledge his position in the pantheon. (As with almost all things, the pendulum effect kicked in, and Kirby was actually lofted ABOVE his station -- something I would not have thought possible -- but a degree of sanity seems to have been restored.)

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Clifford Boudreaux
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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 9:47am | IP Logged | 7  

Wouldn't the reaction to Kirby's DC work be a case of judging the present by the standards of the present? The audience at the time was kids who weren't alive during the Silver Age. Kids aren't particularly known for their sense of history. At that age, they're barely aware there are creators.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 10:12am | IP Logged | 8  

Wouldn't the reaction to Kirby's DC work be a case of judging the present by the standards of the present?

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Huh?

+++

The audience at the time was kids who weren't alive during the Silver Age. Kids aren't particularly known for their sense of history. At that age, they're barely aware there are creators.

••

I have no idea what this means. Kirby's return to DC followed his departure from Marvel as close to instantly as was possible. His last issue of FANTASTIC FOUR (not counting the recycled artwork in 108) was cover dated Sept. 1970. His first issue of JIMMY OLSEN had a cover date of October of the same year! (Obviously, Kirby must have been well ahead of schedule on FF!)

It's not as if a "generation" had changed during the switch. And many would argue the Fourth World books are PART of the "Silver Age".

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David Miller
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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 10:14am | IP Logged | 9  

Often the people who make these complaints are the same ones who think Marvel and DC should pony up the money they "owe" people like Kirby and Ditko, etc. Very generous with corporate money, those people, but keep your sticky fingers out of THEIR wallets!!

+++

Corporations are people, my friend. 
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Clifford Boudreaux
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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 10:29am | IP Logged | 10  

Isn't the whole Jack the Hack thing a reaction to Kirby's then-current work? If kids happily bought his FF, but rejected his New Gods and Devil Dinosaur, this isn't judging the past by the standards of the present.

Was your generation rejecting Kirby's Silver Age Marvel work as junk as well? 
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John Byrne
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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 10:39am | IP Logged | 11  

Isn't the whole Jack the Hack thing a reaction to Kirby's then-current work? If kids happily bought his FF, but rejected his New Gods and Devil Dinosaur, this isn't judging the past by the standards of the present.

••

It was Marvel staffers who called him "Jack the Hack". Hardly "kids".

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John Byrne
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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 10:40am | IP Logged | 12  

Often the people who make these complaints are the same ones who think Marvel and DC should pony up the money they "owe" people like Kirby and Ditko, etc. Very generous with corporate money, those people, but keep your sticky fingers out of THEIR wallets!!

+++

Corporations are people, my friend.

••

Did you quote what you intended? Or respond as you intended? Cuz I can't connect A with B here.

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